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Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

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211–220 of 348 posts

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#211
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you cherry-pick your experts enough, you’ll be able to find one that agrees with you, no matter how absurd your position. So? Some experts are more experts than others?

Interesting you are downvoted, this is precisely what is happening. The contradicting experts are quickly labelled as quacks and loonies, yet we have a long history of the early critical voices being eventually proved right (cholesterol, sugar, cigarettes, asbestos, Oxycodone, bio-labs, roundup, DDT, radium, etc). It's a long list and yet we behave the same every single time. This time I'm sure the consensus/"the sci…

You can make a long list of times outsiders were right and the establishment was wrong. You can also make a long list of times outsiders were wrong and the establishment was right.

Why would you mention only one list and not the other?

Why would you want to enlist as a soldier in one side of a cause where neither side is reliable, neither side has your best interests in mind?

You're playing yourself for a fool.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#213

Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…

You're doing it right, opposing bad information with good. All of what you say here makes sense, including "This is why you shouldn't get your medical advice from Joe Rogan." Where that breaks down is when that turns into, "This is why you shouldn't be allowed to get your medical advice from Joe Rogan." People make unwise choices all the time, and when we try to prevent them from doing so coercively, we fall into a p…

>>Where that breaks down is when that turns into, "This is why you shouldn't be allowed to get your medical advice from Joe Rogan." People make unwise choices all the time, and when we try to prevent them from doing so coercively, we fall into a pit of unintended consequences.

Depends on the coercion.

Taking action against false advertising of medical benefits is and should be under the purview of qualified government agencies, and should be a private cause of action.

E.g., the FDA and FTC have jurisdiction over false claims in drug and food advertising [0-2]. This is an unqualified good thing. It would be a large net benefit to society if these are also extended beyond specific paid-for standard-format advertising claims but also persistent promotion of false and unsubstantiated claims by jucksters like Joe Rogan, whether or not it is the result of direct paid promotion or just as part of his self-promoting schtick to increase it popularity with contrary opinions, and without regard to the number of people he will literally kill with his bad advice.

If you want the libertarian version, then when Jack's relative takes bad advice from adverts or some on-air huckster, then he has a cause of action to sue (and of course must establish that the relative relied on that advice and died from following the advised course of action, and that Jack has suffered losses).

Yes, countering disinformation is a thorny problem, but resorting to First Amendment absolutism is intellectually lazy at best. It feels like having a nice solid black&white answer, but it is not, since the result of the answer is the destruction of society. Bigger challenges and higher complexity society require more complex answers (and NO, simple censorship isn't the answer either).

[0] https://www.fda.gov/drugs/office-prescription-drug-promotion... [1] https://www.fda.gov/drugs/prescription-drug-advertising/back... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/topics/truth-advertising

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#214
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting you are downvoted, this is precisely what is happening. The contradicting experts are quickly labelled as quacks and loonies, yet we have a long history of the early critical voices being eventually proved right (cholesterol, sugar, cigarettes, asbestos, Oxycodone, bio-labs, roundup, DDT, radium, etc). It's a long list and yet we behave the same every single time. This time I'm sure the consensus/"the sci…

Going down the "Some quacks were right, therefore all quacks are right" path will not lead you to a healthy place. Yes, there is inertia in the scientific community, and sometimes the dissenting voices have a hard time being heard. That much is true. But that is true because most of the time, the dissenting voices are wrong, if not outright lunatics.

That's not my point. My point is don't dismiss all alternative views just because someone told you to. Consider a range of views and make your own informed decisions. This should not be about being on teams, but acting like adults.

The 'misinformation' label has made it really easy to just ignore a range of views through not wanting to be in 'that group.'

> But that is true because most of the time, the dissenting voices are wrong, if not outright lunatics

That's an incredibly broad generalisation, you're going to have to back that up with evidence. Does that also include those over-enthusiastically pushing the 'right' science that is in fact later proved wrong? Or are they not lunatics, just 'the science changed' on them?

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#215
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, if you’re a medical doctor like he is and you spend hours poring over the studies, you can eventually conclude that they’re all flawed in various ways, and there’s not really an effect. Sure, and that's why governments around the world employ such people, in significant quantities, to do exactly that, and then tell the media what they've concluded, who help distribute that information to us laypeople . Which i…

That’s not what happened. The media’s responsibility was to accurately communicate that information. Instead what they did was “Lololol horsey drugs! You silly horse people” which was false, and caused the people they needed to convince to dismiss them.

There were substantial numbers of substantive articles about ivermectin, human trials, potential and cautions, etc. For a good example, here's NPR discussing it with an even tone that doesn't match your assertions at all: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/09/19/1038369...

Or here's the NYT using pretty clear wording like "forms of the drug meant for horses": https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/health/covid-ivermectin-p...

There were also some less serious outlets discussing the fact that people were self-prescribing by going to veterinary sources without much context to them. These ones, due to the somewhat funny nature of the concept, tended to go more viral. Doesn't mean the more substantive articles didn't exist.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#216
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the people pushing conspiracy theories about the pandemic are a bigger concern than the subset of media that weren't effectively dispelling those conspiracy theories? It really doesn't make sense to collectively blame "the media" because some of them say silly or incorrect things sometimes. The word itself -- a plural -- tells you there isn't a cohesive "the media" to blame anyway. Who are you actually talking…

In a public health crisis, people who are in charge of communicating with the public should be held to a higher standard than random people on YouTube. Yes, CNN saying that people are dying because of Ivermectin usage is a bigger problem than people suggesting we look at Ivermectin for COVID prevention/treatment. I've heard that sometimes in public health you have to lie to avoid the strange incentives that people ac…

So many people invested in regeneron and the like that that wasn't exactly a one sided calculation. Plenty of vested, veiled interests in PR.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#217

Ivermectin works because the first trials were done in developing economies where the average person had a high chance of parasitic infections. The steroids used as a standard front-line treatment for severe COVID decreases the immune response to parasites, allowing them to multiply unchecked. This killed patients indirectly, but dead is dead , and they "checked in" with COVID, not parasite complaints. Ivermectin is…

I think jiggawatts came up with a reasonable overall summary on Ivermectic's known effectiveness with the information we have available.

What I think is baffling is why there was such resistance to even trying Ivermectin and other alternatives in the first place? I'm not talking about after Joe Rogan used it here, I'm talking about well before he said he used it and there were some initial reports from some Indian and other doctors that this might have been very effective in their initial usage. Sick and dying people wanted to try this out and were shut down. If we had an inexpensive and marginally effective treatment, Covid would have been over very quickly. Yet, every initial inexpensive treatment (Hydroxychloroquine) that showed some initial effectiveness was given the stiffest resistance possible.

It's the easiest risk management decision in the world to try out inexpensive (and safe in human dosage) drugs when the alternative is death, and for some reason there was supreme resistance to this. Why? It still feels like potential solutions were totally shut down precisely because nobody could really make any money off of it.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#218
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds reasonable, until you realise that his opinions massively skew which licensed doctors he lets on the show. So effectively you’re ending up with him pushing his opinion anyway. If you cherry-pick your experts enough, you’ll be able to find one that agrees with you, no matter how absurd your position. I’ll also note that much of the time the licensed doctors he invites on aren’t actually in relevant special…

So tired of people attacking Joe Rogan. He's a pod caster. How come people don't push more on the 'experts' like Wolensky or Fauci or the main stream media? Ignoring natural immunity, not releasing publicly funded data to scientists and citizens to do science, openly lying in the name of 'for your own good', or tweeting a statistic that is way off from the data they released - the list goes on, and these are the high…

>tired of people attacking Joe Rogan. He's a pod caster.

Rogan has millions of listeners who take advice from him and shape their worldviews around his. For many people he is more authoritative on health than public health officials like Fauci, even while not having a fraction of the experience or expertise.

>How come people don't push more on the 'experts' like Wolensky or Fauci

There's been no shortage of criticism of Fauci and others, to include character attacks, conspiracy theories and death threats.

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting you are downvoted, this is precisely what is happening. The contradicting experts are quickly labelled as quacks and loonies, yet we have a long history of the early critical voices being eventually proved right (cholesterol, sugar, cigarettes, asbestos, Oxycodone, bio-labs, roundup, DDT, radium, etc). It's a long list and yet we behave the same every single time. This time I'm sure the consensus/"the sci…

Not to mention Frances Oldham Kelsey and thalidomide. She'd be slated as anti-science on CNN etc today for sure.

And more-so, have any of the scientists and politicians that supported and promoted thalidomide early on been pilloried since? Are they now whackos supporting pseudo/incorrect science?

Re: Ivermectin Didn’t Reduce Covid-19 Hospitalizations in Largest Trial to Date

#220
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to Joe he wasn't giving medical advice, but licensed doctors on his show were.

This sounds reasonable, until you realise that his opinions massively skew which licensed doctors he lets on the show. So effectively you’re ending up with him pushing his opinion anyway. If you cherry-pick your experts enough, you’ll be able to find one that agrees with you, no matter how absurd your position. I’ll also note that much of the time the licensed doctors he invites on aren’t actually in relevant special…

Joe brings on guests that are informative and interesting. He didn't come up with a scheme to hype up Ivermectin or any other treatment. Do you think otherwise?

I believe he has had on: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. Michael Osterholm and and Dr. Peter Hotez. That doesn't look to be cherry-picking experts to push an absurd position.

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