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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

211–220 of 420 posts

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Allow" implies some sort of consent. I understand that you mean in an evolutionary sense, but it's clear that most living beings are averse to dying, even when possessing the most biologically primitive nervous systems. I prefer to head off any arguments in bad faith, "well, why don't all the cows just run away?" Some people are very comfortable resorting to satirical absurdity when discussing suffering, as evidence…

Genuine question and not an attempt to bait you, but curious why the latter is a ridiculous argument? I’ve not heard that argument, but I have seen the occasional piece of research pop up to suggest there’s more complicated communication or social structures in plants. Particularly fungi. I’ve no idea how true any of it is and what why more may learn about that in the coming decades. So while I personally don’t have…

> social structures in plants. Particularly fungi.

FYI, fungi aren't plants, they are part of their own eukaryotic kingdom, and are more closely related to animals than plants.

We also usually only eat the fruit of the fungi, which we call mushrooms. The main part of the fungi lives under ground and is called the mycelium.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will look back with astonishment at the sheer madness of killing animals and eating them.

Doesn't it make you want to go back in time to the moment that humans invented the concept of eating animal flesh and putting a stop to it?

Humans didn't "invent" the concept of eating other animals. We evolved to do so, just like all the other carnivores & omnivores

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to a lot of the ideological absurdities being unleashed by the political establishment in the West. Some of which are supported wholeheartedly by companies supported by YC so rather than risk getting banned for holding "dangerous" ideologies that run counter to that side of the spectrum, I will just chalk this under ephemeral arguments that will go nowhere edit: as suspected it seems I am no longer able…

It's not a novel idea. Isn't it just a fatalistic coloring of ethical relativism? I personally subscribe to the idea that moral truths can be discovered from principals we can derive on inspecting our own preferences and experiences. We can than radiate that practice out to uncover more, and it historically happens by dint of physical/genetic proximity, eg prioritizing the wellbeing of family and friends and so on. A…

I was talking about three letter acronyms being taught in American schools that many of the people in this industry support (obviously not all) to align with their political biases to put downward pressure on wages but I will be honest here and say

I have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It helps the planet, is good for my health, reduces deaths of sentient beings to feed me, has greater trophic efficiency... and the big thing is that vegetarian food and vegan food tastes good. I still eat meat periodically, but I feel much better and happier since I've reduced my meat consumption greatly.

At some stage my son was wilfully damaging plants. As part of the discipline to make him stop I showed him videos of plants sped up. It becomes a bit harder to deny that they aren’t the inanimate objects we perceive them to be because they are slow when you see them react to stimuli and they show what seems to be intent. Although it certainly isn’t a consensus opinion there is a real possibility that (given that the…

> Although it certainly isn’t a consensus opinion there is a real possibility that (given that the nervous system specialises what normal tissues can also do) plants are considerably more “conscious” than we give them credit for.

Yes, that is a possibility, but it's also an entirely ridiculous argument to make to argue against veganism. If you want to argue that the nervous system is just a more specialized version of other tissue and consciousness could therefore, in principal, arise in any kind of organic matter, or inorganic matter even, then one obviously can't prove that statement wrong, but it also seems to entirely miss the point given our current scientific understanding. Obviously humans cannot live in a way that completely avoids any (theoretical) harm to our environment, but veganism is by far the dietary choice that minimizes suffering in this world (though there do exist differences in the kind of vegan diet with regards to its environmental impact).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#215
post #190
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we definitely won't.

But we did finally realize that other races aren't inferior. And that women are equals. So I have hope, that some day we would stop taking their lives just for having a good time. Killing them isn't essential for our survival, or even health.

Not to be overly argumentative, but what a small world view you seem to have. The world certainly doesn't realize that other races aren't inferior and that women are equals. Sorry =[

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#216
post #188
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

without farming they cease to exist at all...

One way to think about it – Imagine a superior alien civilization farming humans and killing them for food at 12-24 months. Does that feel acceptable?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#218
I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts that said tool use and creation enables.

In previous threads on this topic I don't think I've explained deeply why I find their defeat of our team so impressive. This research group contained a multidisciplinary set of scientists. I was the only member that did not have a PhD; almost every team member had completed at least one significant postdoc as well (think Stanford, UChicago, Caltech, prestigious national labs, etc). We had applied science and engineering talents in addition to pure science, so this wasn't a case of not being able to develop realistic escape prevention mechanisms due to the team being too theoretical. The longest we were able to stop this clever guy from escaping with one of our implementations was 4 days. He usually made us look like idiots the very evening after we installed our new prevention device.

Not only this, the octopus made very clear that he had an extremely well developed memory. He clearly recalled his favorite scientist who hadn't visited in a few years when, as soon as said scientist entered the room, the octopus ignored the rest of us and followed him the entire time he would be in the room. He also became what I can only describe as depressed when that individual departed once again; this was a period of time when he stopped eating as much, moved much more lethargically, and his escape attempts were half-hearted - this was the period when he finally took more than one day to break our attempts at keeping him in.

Further, he absolutely had a sense of humour. After seeing us crack up laughing at him wearing this plastic rings we had put in his tank as jewelry (we were setting up some sort of exam that I can no longer recall the purpose of) by placing them on his tentacles, he would do so every time we entered the room. Otherwise, he ignored the rings entirely when we were not present.

I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#219
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard this called the “one bad day” approach. The animals have a good life with only one bad day. In my opinion it’s probably the most ethical way to keep animals if the intent is to slaughter them at some point.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

Do they actually live 25 years in the wild on average? My understanding was that wild animals have dramatically shorter lives than the same animals in captivity, as a general rule. The exact difference varies from species to species but typically the lifespan would be around half.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#220
post #188
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-obvious issue here is that often these animals are sent to slaughter around 12-24 months when they can live happily up to 25 years.

without farming they cease to exist at all...

If they were never born, is that really so bad?
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