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Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

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Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#211

Post by mr_toad »

Vetch wrote: post #174
Animats wrote: post #124

This is an observation that goes back to at least Cicero.[1] Cicero on the primary goal of oratory: "As, therefore, the two principal qualities required in an Orator, are to be neat and clear in stating the nature of his subject, and warm and forcible in moving the passions; and as he who fires and inflames his audience, will always effect more than he who can barely inform and amuse them..." Cicero describes the pro…

I bet this objectively can't be helped. Nuance requires representing uncertainty and is higher complexity from accounting for multiple special cases. Placing more cognitive load and attentional demands on receiver. Human communication is lossy and decoding can be non-trivial inference. Given that everyone comes with differing priors, the more finer grained and complex details are required in reconstructing message in…

> Getting rid of fine grained details and communicating a lower entropy message inline with a crowd's biases also ensures it's more likely to survive in a form close to original intent.

This sounds like Dawkins conception of a meme: an idea small enough to replicate as a whole without error.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#212

Post by Sebb767 »

narag wrote: post #206
Vetch wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet this objectively can't be helped. Nuance requires representing uncertainty and is higher complexity from accounting for multiple special cases. Placing more cognitive load and attentional demands on receiver. Human communication is lossy and decoding can be non-trivial inference. Given that everyone comes with differing priors, the more finer grained and complex details are required in reconstructing message in…

I bet this objectively can't be helped. Actually it can be helped when everybody agrees that some information must be known by everybody. Communication campaigns, making it a subject in schools... So the problem uses to be that there are opposing sides trying to beat each other. OK, that's obvious, isn't it? But come to think of it, is society so divided that most people's interests conflicts with somebody else's? I…

> Communication campaigns, making it a subject in schools...

Both of those are basically so delayed and holey that you can forget using it for anything but the most basic points. Just look at how bad some people are at math and that's something both essential and taught extensively for basically the whole time one is in the education system.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#213

Post by [deleted] »

Sebb767 wrote: post #212
narag wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet this objectively can't be helped. Actually it can be helped when everybody agrees that some information must be known by everybody. Communication campaigns, making it a subject in schools... So the problem uses to be that there are opposing sides trying to beat each other. OK, that's obvious, isn't it? But come to think of it, is society so divided that most people's interests conflicts with somebody else's? I…

> Communication campaigns, making it a subject in schools... Both of those are basically so delayed and holey that you can forget using it for anything but the most basic points. Just look at how bad some people are at math and that's something both essential and taught extensively for basically the whole time one is in the education system.

[deleted]

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#214

Post by scrubs »

Animats wrote: post #124

This is an observation that goes back to at least Cicero.[1] Cicero on the primary goal of oratory: "As, therefore, the two principal qualities required in an Orator, are to be neat and clear in stating the nature of his subject, and warm and forcible in moving the passions; and as he who fires and inflames his audience, will always effect more than he who can barely inform and amuse them..." Cicero describes the pro…

HN has been on fire this week -- in the good way! And this whole post and quote throws another log on it.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#215

Post by throwawayarnty »

Animats wrote: post #124

This is an observation that goes back to at least Cicero.[1] Cicero on the primary goal of oratory: "As, therefore, the two principal qualities required in an Orator, are to be neat and clear in stating the nature of his subject, and warm and forcible in moving the passions; and as he who fires and inflames his audience, will always effect more than he who can barely inform and amuse them..." Cicero describes the pro…

There is something wonderfully persuasive when someone can connect a modern topic to one that has already been addressed by the ancients.

It feels as if the topic, once thought unwieldy and complicated, becomes tractable and clear.

Perhaps the way to handle complicated nuances situations in life is to connect them to a classic problem.

I feel this strategy also works in mathematical fields.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#216

Post by mikewarot »

>Meanwhile, the only message VPs communicated was the need for high velocity. When I asked why there was no communication about the thing considered the highest risk to the business, the answer was if they sent out a mixed message that included reliability, nothing would get done.

The managers obviously didn't want to use nuance. They openly state that it would then enable those who they manage to negotiate with them, which is a power dynamic they'd rather avoid.

If management was sensitive to the feedback, they could intelligently guide the organization through the trade offs involved, instead of blindly charging forward into subsequent, totally avoidable, brick walls.

Software isn't as simple as making gears. Gears themselves are nowhere near as easy to get right as you think, by the way. When you produce gears, there are well known trade-offs in terms of manufacturing costs, maintenance requirements, and service life. None of that is true with software.

Because the best source of information is with the programmers, and the users of the software, any feedback paths between them should be encouraged, and listened to by management, not crushed to meet the quarterly goals.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#217

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

timr wrote: post #172
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that health care orgs should have recommended masks early in the pandemic. What I am saying is their adamant declarations of "masks don't work for the public", which note is an affirmative declaration, were false, and never had any supporting evidence. My question is about whether this "simpler, un-nuanced" explanation in fact complicated things in the longer run.

Yes, I know. We're basically in agreement on the broader points, but I don't agree with your second sentence, and you seem to have the opposite bias in terms of how to act under uncertainty: > What I am saying is their adamant declarations of "masks don't work for the public", which note is an affirmative declaration, were false, and never had any supporting evidence. There's no such thing as an affirmative declarati…

> There's no such thing as an affirmative declaration of the null hypothesis.

I strongly disagree, epistemologically speaking. You can run repeated tests and then conclude an intervention is successful. You can also run repeated tests and conclude an intervention is not successful - as you put it, no better than the null hypothesis. Or, finally, you can have just not run tests at all. There is a difference between the second and third states, and health authorities implied the second state when the third state was far more accurate.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#218

Post by mandmandam »

jiggawatts wrote: post #193
pseudalopex wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, the "We don't recommend the general public wear masks at this time" was consistently misinterpreted to mean "Masks don't work", which is not what was said at all. > The full nuanced statement was: "The CURRENT scientific evidence that is available does not support (OR deny!) that mask wearing by (specifically) the general public is (cost) effective enough to legally mandate. ALSO, at THIS TIME there is…

Twitter is famous for limiting the length of texts, forcing people to boil down the message to its essence and leave nuance behind. But this is Dan Luu's point exactly . When forced to communicate at scale -- such as public health directive messaging -- there's no choice. Nuance doesn't work, only the simplest, blunt messages "get through". Fauci, like many others, were concerned about panic-buying of masks. It's not…

You act like those were the only two options and outcomes. That's a failure of imagination at best, and a false dichotomy.

Some countries were able to issue effective mask wearing guidance - without lying to people, or causing mass mask hoarding. So let's not pretend that wasn't achievable.

Let's also not act like we tried other outcomes first; incentives to mask production, disincentives to mask hoarding, etc.

Multiple trusted organisations lied to Americans, not just for practical purposes but also for political and personal reasons. "Trust the science" now means, obey the science that we didn't censor / fail to investigate / lock behind data protection. It's really not justified, however thick you take people for, and however limited your imagination.

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#219

Post by infofarmer »

librarianscott wrote: post #85
infofarmer wrote: post #51

Counter-examples: Harry Potter, Marvel, etc. High bandwidth, low latency (often days or less), unlimited scale (most of the planet), high retention. Nuance will be pruned at scale if inessential. It’s a feature, not a bug. The popular stories are [perceived as essential] for survival and propagation.

I love your counter examples. In moving beyond the famous Shannon-Weaver model of communication[1], the one with the "signal," "noise," "channel" that network folks love, researchers settled on the importance of "feedback." I would say that these popular stories that become part of "mainstream culture" spread through comedy, song, news, bars, and repeated viewings on television to reinforce and strengthen the "mainst…

I would highly recommend Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson. He draws heavily on Neumann, Jung, and dozens of other giants to explore information and culture.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL22J3VaeABQAT-0aSPq-O...

Re: Nuanced communication usually doesn't work at scale

#220

Post by marcellus777 »

Animats wrote: post #124

This is an observation that goes back to at least Cicero.[1] Cicero on the primary goal of oratory: "As, therefore, the two principal qualities required in an Orator, are to be neat and clear in stating the nature of his subject, and warm and forcible in moving the passions; and as he who fires and inflames his audience, will always effect more than he who can barely inform and amuse them..." Cicero describes the pro…

The reference book here is a collection of dialogs made by Cicero where he argues that there are two types of oratory: the short, "elegant", straight to the point one and the profuse, "appealing", heart touching one. Cicero himself says (in that book) he is in favor the latter. The book is not about nuance, but rather discourse style. In his (Cicero's) view, the better oratory style is the one that touches the audience as opposed to carefully chosen words. Based on the book, IMO, Cicero is more focused on arguing in favor of passionate speeches than nuance per se.

PS. I believe the quotes used are a bit misleading because they are used as counterexamples in the original text.

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