Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#211

Post by dijit » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #204

dijit wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Citation please” “Everything I have read contradicts what you just stated.” Not sure how I could be clearer. Maybe I made a mistake by admitting my ignorance, but i would rather admit my ignorance than assume I know everything because I read 5 articles and watched a few YouTube videos.

For starters HVDC lines are being installed in many places and many are already operational, and the 'windmills kill too many birds' thing was a push by the fossil fuel industry and has been debunked. I don't know which five articles you have read but I suggest you read a couple more and more recent ones. As for 'citation please': that does presume that you have done your own homework, I really don't see why I should…

I appreciate the citations and I will read them.

> I really don't see why I should do it for you

Because the burden of proof rests with the person making the claim.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#212

Post by ZeroGravitas » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #135

SimonSword91 wrote: post #7

I live in Germany and I wonder, what the consequences will be of shutting down both coal and nuclear in very short time. My guess is, we will pay for nuclear energy from France and coal energy from Poland when wind slows down. The new government tries to accelerate the construction of renewable energy but I think their plans will fail because of worker shortage and supply chain problems.

Germany's primary energy source is now coal, now way they can shut it down. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec... This is so stupid, what are they thinking?

By "primary" you mean they used 27% over a 6 month period, compared with 21% the 6 months a year earlier. Switching back into first after a good spell for wind had it briefly in the lead.

Why does that mean they can't switch it off?

The UK had 30% Coal in 2014 when they announced they would phase it out and did so slightly ahead of schedule.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#213

Post by jhgb » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #208

jhgb wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The data shows that. I just added a source that shows that data tells something completely different. In the past ten years, German renewable generation more than doubled (from annual ~100 TWh to ~250 TWh) while their natural gas consumption for electricity generation today is basically the same as back then (somewhere around 90 TWh annually from gas back then as well as today). Not sure how natural gas stagnation…

Because your sources show energy production in Germany . The Germans import a significant amount (~64%) of their energy from other countries, including France (nuclear) and Poland (coal), but also countries further afield like Norway and Russia.

Germans don't import 64% of electricity (in fact they're a net exporter almost every year). This article is about electricity generation in Germany and I'm commenting on electricity generation in Germany. The comment I was responding to was also about electricity generation in Germany. Not quite sure where you're trying to steer the discussion. To the fact that Germany, like many other countries, has yet to fully electrify transportation and heating, where most of these energy imports (gas and oil) are going? Sure, but almost everyone has to. Many, if not most, other developed countries don't fare much better so far.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#214

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #211

jacquesm wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters HVDC lines are being installed in many places and many are already operational, and the 'windmills kill too many birds' thing was a push by the fossil fuel industry and has been debunked. I don't know which five articles you have read but I suggest you read a couple more and more recent ones. As for 'citation please': that does presume that you have done your own homework, I really don't see why I should…

I appreciate the citations and I will read them. > I really don't see why I should do it for you Because the burden of proof rests with the person making the claim.

Only if the claim is an outrageous one, which it really isn't in this case.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#215

Post by yakshaving_jgt » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #176

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide a source to substantiate your claim, because it flies in the face of everything I’ve read.

A friend of mine sells wind turbines and said it's a nightmare to sell these things in Germany. All the land owners hate them. It's like the anti-vax crowd.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I’m not challenging the idea that people don’t want turbines built on or near their property. That might well be the case.

I specifically want a source to substantiate the claim you made with your first eight words.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#216

Post by yakshaving_jgt » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

jhgb wrote: post #213

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your sources show energy production in Germany . The Germans import a significant amount (~64%) of their energy from other countries, including France (nuclear) and Poland (coal), but also countries further afield like Norway and Russia.

Germans don't import 64% of electricity (in fact they're a net exporter almost every year). This article is about electricity generation in Germany and I'm commenting on electricity generation in Germany. The comment I was responding to was also about electricity generation in Germany. Not quite sure where you're trying to steer the discussion. To the fact that Germany, like many other countries, has yet to fully ele…

> Almost 60 percent of the EU’s energy needs (excluding the UK) were met by net imports in 2018. Germany’s energy import dependency was still higher at 63.6 percent – a slight decrease compared to the previous year’s 64 percent.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependen...

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#217

Post by pydry » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

inter_netuser wrote: post #197

pydry wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen some dubious statistics that downplay the number of deaths from nuclear accidents caused by cancer and play up the number of deaths caused by installing solar panels (e.g. by counting the number of people dying on roofs and assuming that most of them were up there installing panels).

Why not provide non-dubious statistics then? Looking forward to you providing us with hard numbers.

~30,000 people died as a result of Chernobyl.

Can you find 20 people who have died installing solar panels? I found about 7 examples on google globally (3 in the US).

The rest of the pages were the dubious statistics calculating "deaths per TWh" that both downplay cancer deaths from nuclear power and extrapolate tens of thousands of falling-off-rooftop-deaths if we generated as much electricity from our residential rooftops as we would from nuclear (which we wouldnt, rooftop solar will always be comparatively minor).

This says very little about solar it just says that clambering about on roofs kills people.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#218

Post by jhgb » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #216

jhgb wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans don't import 64% of electricity (in fact they're a net exporter almost every year). This article is about electricity generation in Germany and I'm commenting on electricity generation in Germany. The comment I was responding to was also about electricity generation in Germany. Not quite sure where you're trying to steer the discussion. To the fact that Germany, like many other countries, has yet to fully ele…

> Almost 60 percent of the EU’s energy needs (excluding the UK) were met by net imports in 2018. Germany’s energy import dependency was still higher at 63.6 percent – a slight decrease compared to the previous year’s 64 percent. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-dependen...

You're confusing energy with electricity again. Please don't do that. Furthermore, it's also a number that is completely irrelevant for the climate perspective, since it doesn't matter if your imports are low if that means you're drilling massive amounts of gas yourself like the US or the UK -- the planet doesn't care if the fuel crossed the borders or not. And, as your own article notes, German decarbonization plans include the elimination of these imports anyway.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#219

Post by whiteboardr » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

jhgb wrote: post #203

whiteboardr wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solely political for federal elections following the Fukushima incident. It’s sad, and almost infuriating, how an event that would never threaten safe nuclear plant operation in Germany set the stone rolling for “Energiewende”. Personally i think Germany is making a huge mistake and will regret this course down the road.

Germany finalized the plans for a nuclear shutdown somewhere around 2021 in a binding law in 2002 (apparently this was based on "remaining energy to be generated", which doesn't naturally allow to put a precise date on it because of annual variations of demand, but all estimates I've seen in the past basically amount to "by very early 2020s"). This was 9 years before the Fukushima disaster. So please explain to me ho…

This actually dates back to 1998 when Schröder was chancellor and made the “Atomausstieg” a key topic for federal elections back then - agreed upon by the government and energy corps in 2000.

Momentum really was gained after fukushima.

Again, my personal opinion, this is a reactionary and short sighted approach answering emotional sentiments not scientific data and facts.

Re: Germany shuts down half of its remaining nuclear plants

#220

Post by belorn » Fri, Dec 31, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

rmbyrro wrote: post #43

zetazzed wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France will build more nuclear, and in the long run solidify its position as a huge exporter of electricity at high rates when wind is low. Weird arbitrage opportunity for them as the neighbors go all in on wind.

Looks like France will be kind of an insurer for energy market. Trading the risk of energy supply shortage for the risk of radioactive accidents.

The overall radioactive waste in the environment will go down if coal plants in EU get replaced with nuclear plants in France, even if there would be future accidents at a similar rate per TW/h produced. Even more so if the coal mines get closed down, as those mines also tend to release a lot of radioactive waste into the environment.

Nuclear plants can in some way be seen as fossil fuel plants that store all the waste produced and only release anything if there is an accident. The fossil fueled plants do the opposite, constantly releasing a steady stream into the surrounding area with no risk of an single accident that release a large stored amount in a single instant.