There's never been a better time to build websites • Hacker News Board

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#211

Post by hooby » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

jokethrowaway wrote: post #194

_fat_santa wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, tailwind might make css a lot easier, and github copilot might make coding a lot faster... but is this really easier than in the early 90ies, when you could just type into notepad and make a website that didn't require any CSS or images or JS or even more than just the most basic html tags? The thing is you can still do all of this. But we have since built tools and frameworks to let you still do this, while g…

The problem is that expectations changed, so now you're "required" to do more in certain contexts. I absolutely loath frontend developments in companies with more than 5 engineers. In the past you may have found some spaghetti code and various abuses of jQuery but you could probably grasp the codebase in an afternoon. Nowadays every mid company codebase is a spaceship. For sure, you'll find a pseudo technical VP of e…

One big question: These "expectations" you are talking about, who's expectations are those?

Might it be possible that those expectations, and those requirements for doing "more", are not coming from the actual users/visitors to the websites - but rather from the companies owning the websites?

Because I, as a visitor of HN, come here for the IT news and the nerd stuff. I happily put up with the layout - because the sites actually meets my expectations for content. At the same time, the best, most modern, snazziest website ever... why would I go there (more than once), if there's no content of interest to me?

And that - to my experience - holds true for almost ALL visitors. They come for the content, and they put up with the layout. And this table-based layout with spacer gifs right here, imho is a lot easier to put up with, than some desing-heavy website that's perfectly optimized for conversion, engagement and retention rates and whatnot.

I think the actual problem is, that when we talk about "expectations" and "requirements" - we talk about what the HOST/SELLER wants - not what is best for the visitor.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#212

Post by kiawe_fire » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #193

_fat_santa wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, tailwind might make css a lot easier, and github copilot might make coding a lot faster... but is this really easier than in the early 90ies, when you could just type into notepad and make a website that didn't require any CSS or images or JS or even more than just the most basic html tags? The thing is you can still do all of this. But we have since built tools and frameworks to let you still do this, while g…

Question: Are people using tailwind for layout? Even when CSS grid is available? If so what is the benefit of tailwind layouts over modern CSS, beyond what tailwinds usually brings?

I am personally, for a couple of reasons.

(1) Tailwind uses utility classes that feel like syntactic sugar over full CSS, so I don't feel like I'm "using Tailwind for layouts" as much as "using useful CSS grid presets"

(2) Much like with margins and paddings, text sizes, and colors, Tailwind helps me "pare down" the number of different values available to me. Much like having preset "m-1", "m-2", etc. values helps me be more consistent, having preset grid columns and gap spacing helps me stay consistent and not go too crazy.

(3) Because I'm using something closer to CSS-wrapped-in-classes rather than a set of components built by someone else, and because tailwind gives both a naming convention and an easy mechanism for adding my own classes that fit right in to Tailwind's, if Tailwind doesn't give me the exact values I want for grid spacing, then I can modify theirs. If I need to add a couple new presets in addition to Tailwind's, then I can do so easily.

(4) Early on when CSS Grid was new, I got bit by some bad layout bugs that were very hard to find, and impossible to fix (they were browser bugs). So, while I'm sure the bugs I encountered have since been fixed, I'm a bit gun shy on grids. I occasionally use Grid when it makes sense (via Tailwind), but more often than not I find it easier, more flexible, and safer to just use nested flexbox cols and rows. For which I also use Tailwind, if the project is of suitable size.

To sum it all up better, I view Tailwind more as syntactic sugar over CSS that helps me build my own design system. So, I would totally use vanilla CSS for small projects that don't need a design system. But for anything more than that, I like Tailwind for the same reason I like using web frameworks on the back end: it helps me keep things structured and consistent and more maintainable, even if I could do it all on my own without the framework.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#213

Post by handrous » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

samhw wrote: post #210

handrous wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It wouldn't just be 'non profit', it would be 'considerable loss'. You can't provide a service like YouTube or Google without incurring enormous expense, even if you're only counting the infrastructure costs. I'm not a bit worried we'd go without capable search engines, without ads. Very likely there'd be donation-supported ones that are at least as good, and maybe better for some purposes (IMO Google's utility pea…

> I'm not a bit worried we'd go without capable search engines, without ads. Very likely there'd be donation-supported ones that are at least as good, and maybe better for some purposes (IMO Google's utility peaked around '08). This isn't necessarily wrong. I personally use Gigablast, which is excellent and entirely independent (unlike many 'alternative' search engines it isn't backed by Google or, more often, Bing).…

You seem to be assuming I don't consume a bunch of content that could be replaced with Snake Game or Solitaire at ~0 loss of enjoyment, because it's incredibly low-value entertainment, so am somehow looking down on others. What do you think this is? That I'm doing right now? The value, in every sense, of nearly all online activities can be found next to "marginal" in the dictionary.

[EDIT]

> if all you have to contribute is moralising about the worth of other people's preferences

Definitely a complete characterization of my views on this, and of these posts. You've looked carefully, considered thoughtfully, and discovered the entire thing. Very good.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#214

Post by the_pwner224 » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

bullen wrote: post #205

The problem with web is that you have 3 levels of dependency: 1. OS (Microsoft has 90%*) 2. Programming language (C++ and Javascript) 3. Browser (Google has 90%*) * of the market on devices with keyboard for production, mobile is consume only and completely meaningless for anything but reading SMTP over radio (unless you consider writing mails on a touch interface productive). You do not want two huge companies to be…

You seem to be mixing up monopolizing and gatekeeping. While MS/Google may own 90%+ market share of OS/browser, Linux and Firefox are very usable, effective, productive alternatives. You're not getting gatekept by MS/Google if you want to be in the modern web.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#215

Post by allknowingfrog » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

samhw wrote: post #187

allknowingfrog wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not already aware of it, Gemini is an interesting project that aims to do exactly that. https://gemini.circumlunar.space/

Interesting, thanks for the pointer! I was aware of Gopher, but not Gemini. It seems to address what would be one of my main concerns about any proposed alternative, which is - for the beginning at least - interoperability with the web. I'm sure people have other bold ideas. I personally think there's a lot of room for something which builds on the 'progressive web app' paradigm: i.e. a web for websites which are mor…

In a bygone era, everything was built of forms, tables and bullet lists. It would be interesting to experiment with a browser that drops JS support in favor of a more robust list of native components.

Alternatively, the modern browser has basically evolved into a virtual machine anyway. You seem to be suggesting that we could do exciting things with a more intentional version of that idea, and I don't disagree.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#216

Post by notjustanymike » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

albertshin wrote: post #176

notjustanymike wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't Hacker News itself a really great example of a website that successfully uses only very basic html with very, very little styling and fancy extra features? Hacker News is an aesthetic that would be unacceptable to the majority of businesses in the world. The login page alone would cripple sales on any e-commerce site.

why do you think that's the case? is it because people will feel 'sketched out' by the bareness and leave?

Yes exactly. Stripe built a whole business on this concept by creating an easy to implement, trustable experience for otherwise dodgy looking small shops. Trust is huge, and a sketchy looking form destroys trust.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#217

Post by DiggyJohnson » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #164

0x0nyandesu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way as the author but I work with php. Recently it's all been TDD, statically typed, and JavaScript gets web packed into one or two files so instead of juggling 15 script tags I only have one or two and a style tag for css. With CI this all happens in the background on every commit. What you pay for when you hire a dev like me with 17 years of experience in the field is the ability to know which libra…

> a dev like me with 17 years of experience in the field That's not the flex I think you think it is ;) I've been coding for over 40 years now, professionally for over 25. The attitude you have is one I very much associate with younger devs with limited experience.

They're providing context, not flexing.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#218

Post by taeric » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

hooby wrote: post #92

It's definitely a great time to build websites, but saying they _NEVER_ have been easier to make... I'm not 100% sure about that. Yes, tailwind might make css a lot easier, and github copilot might make coding a lot faster... but is this really easier than in the early 90ies, when you could just type into notepad and make a website that didn't require any CSS or images or JS or even more than just the most basic html…

I seem to recall Dreamweaver was also good at pretty websites. And it is hard to deny that flash enabled some massively interactive sites back in the day. Of a nature that I don't see much nowadays.

I suspect if you are wanting to create interactive things scratch is a gem.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#219

Post by bullen » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

the_pwner224 wrote: post #214

bullen wrote: post #205

The problem with web is that you have 3 levels of dependency: 1. OS (Microsoft has 90%*) 2. Programming language (C++ and Javascript) 3. Browser (Google has 90%*) * of the market on devices with keyboard for production, mobile is consume only and completely meaningless for anything but reading SMTP over radio (unless you consider writing mails on a touch interface productive). You do not want two huge companies to be…

You seem to be mixing up monopolizing and gatekeeping. While MS/Google may own 90%+ market share of OS/browser, Linux and Firefox are very usable, effective, productive alternatives. You're not getting gatekept by MS/Google if you want to be in the modern web.

It becomes bad when your customers are combining those softwares in a recursive majority.

The only reason incumbants are kept alive is so we can pretend we have a choice.

My excuse is it's hard to use a adjective as a verb.

Re: There's never been a better time to build websites

#220

Post by notjustanymike » Mon, Dec 20, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

hooby wrote: post #190

notjustanymike wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't Hacker News itself a really great example of a website that successfully uses only very basic html with very, very little styling and fancy extra features? Hacker News is an aesthetic that would be unacceptable to the majority of businesses in the world. The login page alone would cripple sales on any e-commerce site.

So... Are you trying to argue that it's easier today to make an acceptable company website than it was in the 90ies... or that it was easier in the 90ies than it is now?

Neither. I'm arguing that Hacker News is not a good example to use when discussing web development. It's easy to make a site simple when you refuse to implement any features, but that refusal is a luxury most businesses do not have.