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California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

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Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#211

Post by primitivesuave »

Like many other things California (and SF in particular) is doing, this is cruelty disguised as compassion.

Let's take away the opportunities to get ahead early, because it may disrupt some egalitarian principles that are totally absent in the real world. As someone who majored in mathematics and was involved in educating K-12 students for many years, I find this to be completely ignorant of the reality behind school districts like those in the Bay Area, where affluent kids take Russian math after school to compensate for the inadequacies in their school's mathematics curriculum.

This is basically what we're dealing with here in California: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

"The framework for deconstructing racism in mathematics offers essential characteristics of antiracist math educators and critical approaches to dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by making visible the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture with respect to math."

On page 8, the authors claim that one way white supremacy manifests itself is when "students are required to show their work in standardized, prescribed ways". This is literally the definition of mathematical notation, and the use of standardized notation is fundamental to being able to communicate with other mathematicians.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#212

Post by moksly »

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations because it was taught too soon.

I don’t think social justice or equality should play a part of the argument, but it’s always hard to tell where the legislation ends and the propaganda begins these days, and I’m honestly no interested enough to read the 800 page document this article is about.

I will say, however, that I think we’re going to have problems teaching math until we reform the school system to be suited for the modern world instead of the early 1900’s “assembly line” society. It makes no sense to place children in classes based on their age, and certainly not for all subjects.

The result is always going to be that both slow and brilliant students get fucked over, in a myriad of ways, especially if they are a mix of good and bad at different subjects.

Why exactly is it that you aren’t taught courses like math, or history or language according to your ability instead of your age?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#213

Post by csa »

kelnos wrote: post #93
zozbot234 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but I'm talking about what works well for the average student, not just math whizs who post on HN.

You shouldn't optimize for the average student; you should stratify instruction so students of different levels are pushed to their limits and beyond. Sure, some students will not be able to handle algebra as early as others. That doesn't mean you hold back the students who can. That's disastrous public policy, at the very least.

> You shouldn't optimize for the average student; you should stratify instruction so students of different levels are pushed to their limits and beyond.

While I personally agree with your point, I think your statement makes the case for the folks who developed this policy.

The “problem” that these policymakers see is that students, when stratified, are not stratified across certain groups in a proportion that is similar to the population.

For folks who focus on equality of outcome, this is a problem.

For folks who focus on equality of opportunity, it is not a problem.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#214

Post by 542458 »

bko wrote: post #185
542458 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grade nine is 14-15 years of age in the US. I agree with you WRT age appropriate-ness. Just because something can or has been introduced at a certain age does not mean that is optimal. I recall a study I saw recently that showed delaying introducing one subject - it may have been math - to very young students had negligible impacts on their scores (compared to students who were introduced earlier) a few years later.…

> The students with a delayed introduction caught up so quickly that the delay didn’t matter Yes and there are some kids that act up or learn to hate education and the system for being forced into what amounts to remedial classes. Sometimes the brightest children are the most difficult precisely because they're not being challenged. The ideal would be to have every student learn at their own pace. Some children could…

Gifted programs do very little or nothing as far as most studies can tell. Any gains in scores are very small, and they don’t appear to make any meaningful difference in student engagement or motivation.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/01623737211008919

https://www.nber.org/papers/w17089

These programs are relatively expensive, and there’s a strong argument the gifted programs should be overhauled, or that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#215

Post by labster »

ipaddr wrote: post #105
TimTheTinker wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "single standard" to me is like outlawing adjustable seats in cars. In the UK, they start separating students into separate tracks around 8th grade. Some will excel in math and science, so give them the opportunity to really go for it and take hard classes. Others will excel in other areas. But if everyone is lumped together in the same bucket and forced into the same mold, the average student's highest level of…

Get labelled incorrectly in grade 8 and get shutout of any advanced math/science classes which disqualifies you from a good university program.

But isn’t it unfair to saddle minorities with more generational debt by getting them to attend universities? I’m being snarky here but also legitimately asking. My student loan payments resume in a month because Biden doesn’t care about non-Boomers.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#217

Post by geomark »

nefitty wrote: post #159
WillPostForFood wrote: post #5

It’s the official shift from “we can lift everyone up” to “we need to hold everyone down”. It wasn’t that long ago the California was touting the success of Algebra for everyone in 8th grade.

Looking out from this moment in history, if I wanted to prepare someone for the future, STEM wouldn't be the main focus. I know it's anathema to say. In a world where computers fold proteins and predict programmer's intentions, the value of technical knowledge is showing decay. In the world we're hurtling toward, we don't need people who can recite the Pythagorean theorem. We need people who can cooperate with other…

I would say a strong counter to your argument is that Covid highlighted the need for much better STEM education, because of how painfully obvious it was that so many do not understand "the science". That's in quotes because that's the phrase that was bandied about so often.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#218

Post by lordnacho »

elliekelly wrote: post #75
zozbot234 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to introduce Algebra much earlier than 8th grade - the students just don't have the mathematical maturity for it. What you can do though is challenge and expose them to slightly more complex applications of ordinary math (often stated via increasingly elaborate "word problems") that make the introduction of algebra a lot more natural when the students are finally up for it. You tend to see this approach in…

Anecdote: I’ve tutored elementary school kids (in Massachusetts) who are doing basic algebra with shapes and emoji instead of letters. > 5 + $basketEmoji = 7 > What number is hiding in the basket? They have no idea they’re doing algebra or what algebra even is but they’re doing it. And they understand the concept on a fundamental level. I don’t remember anyone explaining a variable to me so explicitly. I just remembe…

There's an app called DragonBox that does this and slowly replaces the pictures with letters, then develops ideas like expanding brackets and such.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#219

Post by TedShiller »

ldiracdelta wrote: post #172
TedShiller wrote: post #136

If you are high income, then this won’t affect you at all. Your kids will be doing calculus and algebra early because they enjoy it and are probably good at it. It’ll just be outside of school.

Only if the parents are also highly conscientious and heavily invested in their children, which is not given. I've encountered a number of people in my career who are being under-utilized, because no one pushed them in their education. Not everyone has internal motivation or parental structure, unfortunately.

I agree. So it would be better said as: If you’re high income and care about your kids education

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#220

Post by wara23arish »

yeaman1231 wrote: post #106
dragonwriter wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the official shift from “we can lift everyone up” to “we need to hold everyone down”. No, its based on empirical evidence that the way things were done previously holds everyone down, and they should be done differently if you want to lift everyone up. Educational approaches are technologies, and old familiar technologies are, often, just not as good at their purpose as newer ones.

what evidence and what data? I studied math in Syria and was doing Calculus at 8th grade, came to the states and was forced to redo basic algebra. Do you know how soul crushing it is to redo those classes? edit: I dont understand how poor war-torn countries can have a better educational system than the most developed country in the world.

I can echo your sentiment. Came from Lebanon and was surprised by how little math people knew here from high school.

Ahla fik khayye :)

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