Is there such a thing as good taste? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#211

Post by fijiaarone » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #84

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

If taste is subject to experience -- and it is unless you think someone who has only seen very little art in a very limited scope of style is as qualified to judge the quality of art as someone who has seen lots of art of many different styles -- then skill is definitely a strong factor in influencing taste.

While it is true that there are people who have a high degree of technical skill (or of talent) who have poor taste, which means that skill is not the direct cause of taste, it is an essential -- and significant element.

It's like assuming that practicing athletics does not make you better able to appreciate the achievements of other athletes.

Skill give both awareness and depth to your perception, and if you think neither of these attributes are applicable to determining quality, you lack the linguistic or cognitive ability to join the discussion.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#212

Post by cwmoore » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

As a painter and hacker[1] myself, I understand the message, believe the answer to the headline is "yes, but you can't have it" and I (as surely too would you) understand the vast gulf between my artwork and Rembrandt's, or my code and Norvig's, or my swimming and Phelps', but I've got to say, using "better art" as a test of taste is the irreducible absurdity, and I'd hoped for better after his introduction purported to propose a proof. In principle of charity I'll assume that other speakers at the talk this essay was adapted from may have covered those other considerations, and that PG was attempting or invited to fill an experiential gap which in this extracted form left the piece without some necessary reification.

In the conversational spaces that attempt to account for taste are the same human conflicts that set one true believer against another of a different religion.

I think the proper reductio ad absurdum is the more trivial one. Taste some rotten meat-- and either spit it out and rinse with strong liquor, or endure (survive?) the GI infection, then tell someone else to eat it, and see what you feel about the subjectivity of taste afterwards. See how the person your recommended the rotten meat feels about it, if anything. Finer points of arguments for or against some artist or movement are unsubstantiable when there is, I think we can agree, such a thing as guts.

[1] I originally found HN after reading PG's book "Hackers and Painters"[2] and realized his practice of implementing the techniques of Old Masters in the late-20th Century, was not at all the kind of work that drew me to visual art.

[2] http://www.paulgraham.com/hackpaint.html

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#213

Post by jl6 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

hardwaregeek wrote: post #191

It amazes me when people seem to lack taste. I'm not even saying the ability to rank items in a way that agrees to some general standard. I'm saying the ability to notice that there is even a difference. I'll talk about taste in the literal sense but this extends to everything. I remember being at a Chinese restaurant with some friends where we were eating scallion pancakes. I said, boastfully, that my family makes b…

The skill of distinguishment seems like something that could be learned with practice, or by having better observing tools (e.g. better eyesight, or more taste buds). This is the part that you could, in principle, program a robot to do.

Judging which of two thing is better (aesthetic taste) feels like something quite different.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#214

Post by fijiaarone » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

barrenko wrote: post #138

You can't talk about taste the same way you can't talk about religion.

Because if you admit one outcome is "better" than another you're conceding that morality exists.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#215

Post by Igelau » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

humanistbot wrote: post #194

jccalhoun wrote: post #84

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

Edit: OK fine, I'll shut up.

> rich tech folks writing about areas way outside of their expertise

Even if you were right, the majority of canonical art history comes down to how rich people are spending their money.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#216

Post by cwmoore » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

anm89 wrote: post #209

hardwaregeek wrote: post #191

It amazes me when people seem to lack taste. I'm not even saying the ability to rank items in a way that agrees to some general standard. I'm saying the ability to notice that there is even a difference. I'll talk about taste in the literal sense but this extends to everything. I remember being at a Chinese restaurant with some friends where we were eating scallion pancakes. I said, boastfully, that my family makes b…

This always bothers me specifically about music. I don't claim to have some universal say on what is good and bad music, there is tons of music out there which I think is tasteful but I simply don't like. But like 10% of music let's say is absolute garbage, mostly top 40 stuff made from cosntructed bands with some models as front men, written by a team constructed by a label to create the most generically likeable mu…

What you call "garbage" others might label "recycling" ;)

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#217

Post by fijiaarone » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

loudmax wrote: post #72

codeulike wrote: post #7

This ignores the sociological aspects - having 'good taste' in something (art, sneakers, car modifications, tattoos) is a way of signalling membership of a group or distinction within that group. Even being interested in [classical] 'art' in the first place is a signifier of being in a certain strata of society. The way this essay is written seems anchored in one very particular social strata and the signifiers that…

I think sneaker aficionados would say that there really are designs that are better than others. That's even leaving aside functionality and just considering aesthetics. To those of us outside the sneaker-head community, sneaker fashion looks like a lot of noise and kind of silly. But I'd expect if one really got into sneaker fashion one could learn to appreciate the different colors or fabric patterns or whatever el…

While you can find taste within any field or art, choosing which subject to apply your taste to is also a matter of taste.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#218

Post by fijiaarone » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

mojuba wrote: post #69

codeulike wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social signals aren't real-time light-beams that someone has to be there to witness; they make up our likes and interests and who we are. Let's say you are in a museum alone, some of the works presented can resonate and excite you more than the others, but you can't share your excitement with anyone. Where is the social signaling element gone then? Lets say: Two months later I'll be at a dinner party and over a bowl…

Yes but your momentary reaction to what you see, how much of it is "social"?

Being in a museum itself is a "social signal".

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#219

Post by oopsyDoodl » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #103

Wrote professionally about taste in a previous life. It is related more closely than we expect to techne or competence from physical knowledge. When we think of poor taste, we tend to think of symbols that are separated from their function and meaning, where instead of representing that, "I do this thing," something gaudy says, "I have this thing!" That's what crassness is, and it comes down to our relative apprehens…

At the end there you highlight the issue that makes me think good taste is still hand wave-y subjectivity.

Since you say early on good taste is the difference between “I have” and “I do” good taste can’t be anything we possess, so how can anyone “have” good taste. Round n round we go.

This continues to highlight for me the shortcomings of human languages. Chomsky calls them random noise formalized and controlled by political powers. It makes sense, they only show up 5,000 years ago and we had glyphs for process and ideas before then. Given our legal system is normalized to matters of object possession, so goes our discourse. Given your measure it’s about “I do” versus “I have” can anyone “have” good taste since it comes down to advertising and accepting one is possessed of certain character traits? Isn’t it still gaudy self promotion and idolatry?

I’m still leaning towards peoples social power being due to their relative closeness to social power. Not that they’re uniquely beyond human. Why accept that in a system politically and academically normalized abstraction “good taste” is a useful language object itself?

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#220

Post by rp1 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

Igelau wrote: post #210

rp1 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other considerations are there other than skill? Isn’t everything a skill? Graham lists a few other extraneous concerns that people judge art by. He asserts these are unrelated to the art itself, like which museum the art is hanging in. I agree with Graham’s premise. My theory is that people don’t believe good taste exists because most people have bad taste and that’s too big of a pill to swallow. Would you rath…

> My theory is that people don’t believe good taste exists because most people have bad taste This breaks down pretty quickly outside of fine art criticism. If I put 20 people in a room and only one of them has dressed "in good taste", they'll stick out badly enough that the consensus of the group will be that the one is in "bad taste". The problem is that "taste" is vague, depends on ephemeral context and may be sub…

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Graham is not saying that taste is quantifiable or identifiable via public opinion or consensus, so I'm not sure how the situation of 20 people in a room evaluating taste is relevant.