Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#211

Post by teawrecks » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #50

jacobolus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Active involvement = parent teaches child various skills and ideas, reads books aloud, suggests interesting problems to solve, works together with them on extra-curricular projects, obtains materials and resources related to the child’s personal interests, ... Micromanaging the completion of their school-assigned busywork is something different.

I don't know if you have kids, I am guessing not, if I am wrong, my apologies. Knowing what your kids have due for school is not micromanaging its a core part of being a good parent. I know if my kid has a math test so it lets me sit down with him and review for his test, it allows me to ensure he knows the basis for whatever comes next in his curriculum. Terribly overbearing parents are not good but I think people a…

I know you have kids, so you're too close to the situation to have an unbiased view, but realize that the math is only a small part of what your child is learning here. They also need to know how to judge for themselves whether they are prepared, they need to know how to seek out help from you or a tutor when they don't. Similarly, they need to learn what happens when they don't do these things and just assume someone else will do it for them.

You are doing your child a disservice by ensuring they are always prepared for every challenge they face.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#212

Post by TrackerFF » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

assbuttbuttass wrote: post #62

The most hilarious part is the official app was built by five different contracting companies. No wonder the thing was a mess.

Seems on par with most state-sponsored IT project here in Scandinavia.

Big consulting firms involved, billions spent, horrible products shipped.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#213

Post by wonderwonder » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #207

dgfitz wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have children? Honest question.

Also don't have kids. I'm in my 30s. Totally agree with the other commenter. As a kid in school, I had to learn to be responsible for things, it was my responsibility to decide what I could handle on my own and what I told my parents about, and I paid the price when I dropped the ball. Yeah, there are always a few kids who need more help learning these skills than others, and I could see the app in the hands of good…

Your parents already had access to the app, just in the form of a folder you were sent home with that had everything printed out. This is just a digitized version, its not the 2nd coming of the Gestapo. Also you need to think about this from the perspective of the parents, having kids in school mean you have to do things, you can either be informed ahead of time and do them in a leisurely manner or you can find out last minute, rush everything and get stressed. The app helps people avoid that stress. You are young, I am surprised you are anti the digitization of something that has been inefficient for so long; and trust me if you have kids in school you would know just how frustrating it is to keep track of everything that is going on or due.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#214

Post by henrikschroder » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

GhettoComputers wrote: post #112

Monopolies hate competition, they’re terrified of better products, and a free open source version is better than their squandered tax program. Why are the defending their own poor quality program? Do they want Sweden to fail?

The only reason they're defending their shit is prestige at this point.

The system was originally procured by city administrators who had way too little understanding and experience dealing with IT projects.

The contract was awarded to one of the big consultant behemoths who specialize in winning government contracts and executing them shoddily.

Parents hate it, because it is shit.

Anyone in the industry with a brain hates it, and laughs at it, because it is shit.

Elected city politicians hate it, because it is shit, and their voters are constantly telling them it is shit.

But the vendor is of course defending their contract and the sweet, sweet tax money they're getting.

And the people with power to actually do something about it, unelected city administrators, are defending it, because they feel they have to double down on their earlier shit decisions.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#215

Post by watwut » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #138

Diggsey wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's absolutely micromanaging and negative. The goal of school isn't just to pass the tests. If a kid fails to revise for a test, but it doesn't matter because their parent will just look up the schedule and force them to revise, then they learn nothing beyond what's in the test. If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise through th…

Interesting strategy. How have your kids performed under it?

Not him, but generally to large extend I have that strategy and kids do well. Both have good grades and are motivated. Obvious caveat is that if their grades were not good, I would get involved more. When their grades fallen a bit, I was there telling them that they need to learn, analyzing test with them and so on and blah blah. When homework was not done, I got involved for a while until the kid got into habit of doing it. Other obvious caveat is that when they ask for help, I always come in to help.

The thing is, hands off approach really works and motivates kids - but it still requires attention and correction. And it does not work with all kids at all ages.

Most people remember 15 years old self and assume kids all ages are as mature as they remember themselves. Meanwhile, most 6 years old are much less developed.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#216

Post by watwut » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

newbamboo wrote: post #137

_jal wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she is not good at managing that sort of thing, then she needs to get better. ...And how do you think that happens? "Sarah, I can't help but notice that you have emotional regulation issues. Go get better at it."

I would ask her why she didn’t do well on her math test and encourage her to think about strategies she could use to do better on the next one. I believe in providing scaffolding and empowering young minds. I realize there are different parenting styles but at some point the child won’t have anyone else to manage her and will need to solve problems in her own. It’s great if she has a lot of practice and experience wi…

You expect that from 6 years old? They can't even read and write.

School age kids don't start at 14 when you can discuss strategies. It starts at 6 when the kid starts mostly confused and excited.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#217

Post by true_religion » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #175

newbamboo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would ask her why she didn’t do well on her math test and encourage her to think about strategies she could use to do better on the next one. I believe in providing scaffolding and empowering young minds. I realize there are different parenting styles but at some point the child won’t have anyone else to manage her and will need to solve problems in her own. It’s great if she has a lot of practice and experience wi…

"I would ask her why she didn’t do well on her math test and encourage her to think about strategies she could use to do better on the next one." How has that worked with your own kids? If my kid comes home with an F on a test, they don't want me to sit down and think about strategies. They are going to probably be upset (if they think academics are important) or not care at all (not a great alternative). First thing…

I kind of think you two are talking past each other here. By 'encourage her to think about strategies', I think the OP does mean to show that they love and support the child. That'd fall under the category of encouragement, and they probably think it's obvious that you'd take care of their emotional and mental health while problem solving.

On the other hand, you seem to be anti-strategy but you say that you need to 'sit down with them, go over the subject matter and discuss it with them to ensure they understand'. Isn't going over the material a strategy to do better next time?

It may be that the word 'strategy' is just ill defined here. I mean, this isn't the military, so isn't a valid strategy the application of any plan whether it be as simple as "hey kid, study before the test" or "let me teach you English-comprehension personally"?

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#218

Post by watwut » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 6:59 PM UTC

antihero wrote: post #102

wonderwonder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest" I disagree, I have 2 kids in elementary school and it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in, see what's for lunch and if I need to pack them something if they won't like the available option. Most importantly though its very helpful to look up what homework /…

> it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in I swear we just had an A4 piece of paper with my lessons on it on the fridge.

It is literally the same thing then. If one is not causing outrage, nor should the other.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#219

Post by teawrecks » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

wonderwonder wrote: post #213

teawrecks wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also don't have kids. I'm in my 30s. Totally agree with the other commenter. As a kid in school, I had to learn to be responsible for things, it was my responsibility to decide what I could handle on my own and what I told my parents about, and I paid the price when I dropped the ball. Yeah, there are always a few kids who need more help learning these skills than others, and I could see the app in the hands of good…

Your parents already had access to the app, just in the form of a folder you were sent home with that had everything printed out. This is just a digitized version, its not the 2nd coming of the Gestapo. Also you need to think about this from the perspective of the parents, having kids in school mean you have to do things, you can either be informed ahead of time and do them in a leisurely manner or you can find out l…

It sounds like you may have had a very unorthodox childhood and may not realize it. No, my parents didn't have access to, or knowledge about my things. As soon as you entrust a child with a document, it is up to that child whether that document survives more than a few steps out of the classroom, let alone whether a parent ever knows about it. That is a very strong form of autonomy, important to a child's development, that the app completely eliminates.

The stress you are talking about seems to me like the hallmark of an overbearing parent. Let your child fail sometimes. That's ok, they need to experience that, that's how you learn. You can't let them think that someone else will always take care of the things they don't. You're not doing them any favors by ensuring they always succeed.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#220

Post by bink » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

assbuttbuttass wrote: post #62

The most hilarious part is the official app was built by five different contracting companies. No wonder the thing was a mess.

This was the first thing that jumped out at me as well. I've worked on govt. contracts and when you put >1 contractor on the same project they become competitors. They will sabotage each other in the hopes of winning a larger share in the future. And beyond that they have absolutely no incentive to help each other. Their managers aren't going to pay them to make the other contractors code work better.