Making Emacs Popular Again (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#211

Post by brabel » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #112

xroche wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of standard Java plugins?" This. Used Emacs for fifteen years professionally, and I gave up when I had to reinstall my laptop, as having intellisense-like features and easy navigation in Emacs is a complete pain. I actually did not intent to switch to VSCode, but after a couple of hours…

I've used Emacs for 30 years, and I have no intention of ever giving it up, but IMO this is somewhat accurate. The package installation and configuration story on Emacs has gotten a lot better over the last ten years or so, but there really ought to be a kind of meta package installer and configurator that does exactly what VSCode does: when it finds a file that it doesn't handle specially but for which there is an e…

Emacs Prelude[1] does exactly that.

It comes with very few extra packages installed, but when you try to open a file in a certain language, it will offer to install a set of "standard" packages for you that enable support for it.

[1] https://prelude.emacsredux.com/en/latest/

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#212

Post by oblio » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

WalterGR wrote: post #203

vintermann wrote: post #71

Emacs' fundamental problem is that in text editing, there are many equally good ways to do things. It's equally good for Undo to be on control _ as on control z. It's equally good for scrolling to move the cursor as to not move it. It's equally good to have Lisp as a scripting language as JavaScript. No, really, I mean it. It's not a big deal in the big picture. And Emacs choose perfectly good, perfectly sensible def…

The biggest problem for me is the constant context switching between those defaults chosen 30 years ago and the defaults converged on by every other app I use. Of course, no context switching is needed if you do everything in Emacs.

You can't. Everyone except for RMS also uses at least a real web browser.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#213

Post by mr337 » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #102

xroche wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of standard Java plugins?" This. Used Emacs for fifteen years professionally, and I gave up when I had to reinstall my laptop, as having intellisense-like features and easy navigation in Emacs is a complete pain. I actually did not intent to switch to VSCode, but after a couple of hours…

My emacs setup takes minutes to install on a new computer. I use borg, but there are many other ways to do it.

I was thinking the same thing. I use spacemacs and have moved to about 5 laptops over the last five years. Just bring along the .spacemacs files and any supporting tools like ripgrep etc and I am up and running.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#214

Post by bachmeier » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

Emacs is not just for programming. Given the popularity of other uses (org-mode being the obvious big example) it's likely that text editing is the bigger potential market than programming.

There's a market for a customizable text editor. Look at what non-programmers are doing with Obsidian. The outdated defaults Emacs uses kills off their chances of getting into that market. Weird default shortcuts for no reason, a block cursor by default, strange terminology in the documentation, excessive keystrokes in the keyboard shortcuts (C-x C-s to save rather than C-s and C-f to search), and the list goes on. When someone gets to the point of customizing, they're happy with Emacs, but Emacs does everything it can to run them off before they get there.

Another thing they need to do is make sure they have the best markdown mode in the default install, complete with Pandoc integration. As good as it is, org-mode is not what most people are looking for when they are writing a text document.

> Yes, make Emacs appealing and user friendly. But don't forget that a masterful tool in the end requires mastery, which can't come for free.

That's true, but why add all the unnecessary baggage for new users? Just make the editor function like any new user expects and let the customization options turn them into passionate users.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#215

Post by oblio » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #102

xroche wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of standard Java plugins?" This. Used Emacs for fifteen years professionally, and I gave up when I had to reinstall my laptop, as having intellisense-like features and easy navigation in Emacs is a complete pain. I actually did not intent to switch to VSCode, but after a couple of hours…

My emacs setup takes minutes to install on a new computer. I use borg, but there are many other ways to do it.

How long did it take you to assemble your setup?

Wall time, not fuzzy memories à la "it takes 5 minutes to cook this".

My bet? Tens, if not hundreds of hours.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#216

Post by windthrown » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

f00zz wrote: post #209

dagw wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you will never be as fast or flexible as an F1 car F1 race cars are literally the least flexible cars available. They are designed for exactly one type of racing and there is hardly anything you are allowed to configure the way you want. There are cars with higher top speeds than F1 cars, and cars that accelerate faster. A $2k second hand Honda Civic will beat the crap out of an F1 car around a gravel track. F1 cars…

> F1 cars aren't even the fastest design for racing on F1 race tracks. I found this a bit confusing. Why is that, do F1 races have a speed limit? I openly admit my ignorance about F1.

There isn't a speed limit but by placing strict limitations on the engine design, they indirectly limit the speed of the cars.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#217

Post by steelframe » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

At the recommendation of an EE professor, I adopted EMACS as an undergraduate in the first few years of the 3rd millennium. I stuck with it for about 18 years, including stumbling through a handful of custom elisp scripts to get some stuff done that I wanted.

With the advent of VMs in data centers, I found that constantly installing EMACS started to become a real chore, and vi was just always present in base images. Also, always needing to remap caps lock and left ctrl was obnoxious, especially as I moved between Linux, Windows, and MacOS environments. So last year I bit the bullet and went fully into vi.

First I did some research into the scriptability of the editor, and upon learning that I could hook events via autocmd that call into custom Python code, that was it for me. I wasn't interested at all in struggling to figure out some arcane (to me) elisp invocation just to do some simple text manipulation, when I already knew Python well enough to just get done what I wanted with minimal trial-and-error. Plus the wealth of libraries available from pip and Vundle pretty much gives me all the extensibility and integration with other toolsets I could possibly want.

I spent some time practicing the key combinations for stuff I would effortlessly "just do" in EMACS: split window, jump to the bottom window in the frame, open a buffer, find text, highlight and copy, jump back to the other frame, record macro and run it 12 times, yank words/lines, re-indent region, etc.

Aside from muscle memory, there really wasn't anything keeping me with EMACS any more. I still am not quite as proficient in vi as I was in EMACS, but at the same time my career has moved away from 100% coding to more a mix of emails, documents, and occasionally some code, so maybe that has something to do with my departure from the EMACS world. I care more about the hassle of having to install EMACS in various environments I jump into as I'm working with nodes in the data center than I do about my level of comfort and proficiency in EMACS.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#218

Post by sbuttgereit » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

gopiandcode wrote: post #116

I see many people on here (likely non-emacs users) claiming that Emacs is obsolete/outdated/dying by completely misunderstanding its position in the ecosystem. Maybe it's easier to understand via analogy. Let's consider cars. Of the global population of car users, relatively few of them are F1 racecar drivers. Furthermore, you can easily make the case that the particular features (aerodynamics, speed etc.) that make…

Hmmm... I agree that Emacs is specialist, but at least half the reason I don't use it is that it tends to be fairly sluggish if you start really configuring it and using it.

Rather than an F1 race car, maybe the analogy would be better made to one of those backhoe/front loader combos. While it won't do simple operations like getting you from point 'A' to point 'B' as quickly, you can do more once you get there as compared to the family sedan. Of course, once you do get there you have to invest substantial time learning how to use the backhoe, the front loader, how not to tip it over, how not to inadvertently break stuff with it, etc. But once you've taken all that time and practiced it enough... you can do quite a lot.

That metaphor feels very much more Emacs like.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#219

Post by Jtsummers » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

gjvc wrote: post #193

CJefferson wrote: post #65

Speaking as someone who sees a lot of students start using text editors for the first time, VSCode has two massive advantages over Emacs: 1) Most students already basically know their OS's graphical interface -- the "basic keys" like cut/copy/paste/load/save all work as expected. 2) The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of sta…

Computer Science students would greatly benefit from an introductory-level course in the two of the most historically influential languages -- LISP and Smalltalk. Emacs as an editor does take effort to learn, and it's a different type of effort from all the other editors you mention, because they are all quite different beasts. In the end, it comes down to pedagogical considerations and how each individual learns. Em…

Not always with those two languages, but in many CS curricula in the US there is a "programming languages" course that covers between 4 and 10 [0] languages in different language families. Prolog and Common Lisp (or Scheme) are typically included, you may get Smalltalk in there depending on the school. It's brief, because it's one course, but it's usually a 3rd year course so students should be competent programmers by then (that is, an Algorithms 101 course but in Lisp would be a slog for them).

Other schools make a point (or made, not sure the current state) of changing languages between courses in the first couple years and giving more choice to students later. Like, an OO course would have been taught with Smalltalk after an intro algorithms/data structures course sequence using Java, Python, or other languages. A compilers course may have used SML, but it wasn't an SML course, just a compilers course that happened to use SML.

[0] The most I've seen, it was absurdly paced, an intern was taking that one.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again (2020)

#220

Post by bachmeier » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

xroche wrote: post #79

CJefferson wrote: post #65

Speaking as someone who sees a lot of students start using text editors for the first time, VSCode has two massive advantages over Emacs: 1) Most students already basically know their OS's graphical interface -- the "basic keys" like cut/copy/paste/load/save all work as expected. 2) The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of sta…

> The first time you load many common filetypes (like Java for example), a box pops up saying "Do you want me to install a nice set of standard Java plugins?" This. Used Emacs for fifteen years professionally, and I gave up when I had to reinstall my laptop, as having intellisense-like features and easy navigation in Emacs is a complete pain. I actually did not intent to switch to VSCode, but after a couple of hours…

This is why I still use Emacs for a lot of things. Just not programming.