Live data from Hacker News

Untitled topic

news.ycombinator.com

211–220 of 259 posts

Re: undefined

#211
post #207

The myth, that’s the Steve Jobs that I idolize. I’m not sure what he’s actually like or at what cost the world paid to fulfill his vision. There’s two events in my life where I can clearly recall what I was doing at the time. The first is 9/11. I was eight years old and I came down from my bedroom, my parents were staring at the TV in disbelief. I knew I was witnessing something important. The second is Steve Jobs’ d…

I loved the public person I knew as Steve Jobs!

I was genuinely gutted when he died, and suffered from a form of grief!

Jony Ive gave an interview recently to the WSJ!

“I loved how [Steve] saw the world. The way he thought was profoundly beautiful.”[1]

"Perhaps it is a comment on the daily roar of opinion and the ugly rush to judge, but now, above all else, I miss his singular and beautiful clarity. Beyond his ideas and vision, I miss his insight that brought order to chaos."

"Since giving Steve’s eulogy I have not spoken publicly about our friendship, our adventures or our collaboration. I never read the flurry of cover stories, obituaries or the bizarre mischaracterizations that have slipped into folklore."

I think this idea he was a 'terrible person' is just one that gets headlines!

Jony Ive's comment about the "bizarre mischaracterizations" is important I think in understanding Steve Jobs.

Many of the comments and anecdotes that go into creating the publicly understood persona of Steve Jobs come from a few well trodden stories IMHO. I've read a lot of books and articles on Apple and SJ over the years. I worked there in the 90's.

If you don't have a story about what an asshole he was, it doesn't get airtime!

Want traffic to your blog? Write about that one time you met Steve Jobs for 2 minutes and he told you your idea was garbage....

[1] WSJ Article on Apple News. https://apple.news/AeAZZga9oTPK4eCMTuAKChQ

Re: undefined

#212
post #207

The myth, that’s the Steve Jobs that I idolize. I’m not sure what he’s actually like or at what cost the world paid to fulfill his vision. There’s two events in my life where I can clearly recall what I was doing at the time. The first is 9/11. I was eight years old and I came down from my bedroom, my parents were staring at the TV in disbelief. I knew I was witnessing something important. The second is Steve Jobs’ d…

Steve Jobs was a force of nature.

He brought Objective C to the forefront of attention, by creating a platform for the web, as exploited by Tim Berners Lee.

I must confess, I never learned Objective C.

The Jobsian "reality distortion field" must have been so very hard to bear for the man who wore it, but the ends have justified the means.

Steve Jobs made our reality, early, middle, and late.

Re: undefined

#213
post #11

Still wish he was around. Apple has made some interesting stuff, but I think it would have been so much better with steve at the helm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a big focus of his was user friendly affordable tech. Not luxury items like apple is now.

I think he was a great integrator. He got people working together that needed to. Internally with groups at apple, and externally like the record labels and apple. I think he also listened to a variety of people and made course corrections. As to affordability: they always had high margins. wikipedia says of the original macintosh 128k: Introductory price: US$2,495 (equivalent to US$6,220 in 2020)

The initial price target for the Macintosh was $1495, but with the addition of new technology like the Sony 400K floppy disk drive, the team realized it would have to sell for a higher price like $1995.

Three months before the release, John Sculley decided to raise the price to $2495 and use the extra profits for marketing. Steve Jobs was upset at this but eventually gave in. I've often wondered how different things would have been if Steve had won that argument... probably not very, to be honest.

Source: Andy Hertzfeld https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...>

Re: undefined

#214
post #207

The myth, that’s the Steve Jobs that I idolize. I’m not sure what he’s actually like or at what cost the world paid to fulfill his vision. There’s two events in my life where I can clearly recall what I was doing at the time. The first is 9/11. I was eight years old and I came down from my bedroom, my parents were staring at the TV in disbelief. I knew I was witnessing something important. The second is Steve Jobs’ d…

> Apparently he was a terrible person. :shrug: Why do I care? I learnt a lot from him and never had to deal with his shit. Do my heroes have to be saints?

I find it curious that you seem to think that treating people with decency and respect is the realm of saints. That's a horrifically low bar.

What you've expressed is in my opinion one of the most detrimental sentiments in Silicon Valley (and sadly much of society) today. If you're brilliant, rich, talented, etc., the expectations for how you treat others drop immensely. Behaviors that would be considered severe character flaws in the less successful and admired are tolerated and brushed aside as the quirks of "complex" geniuses.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Re: undefined

#215

What I remember the most about Jobs' death are 2 things: 1) Most of the media did an heavy coverage of his death and legacy. 2) Exactly 1 week after his death one of my personal heroes died too: Dennis MacLister Ritchie. Almost no one paid attention. From computers to micro-controllers, from satellites to abs breaks, Ritchie's legacy goes far deeper and wider than Jobs'. Almost every programmer today touches some of…

The thing that made Jobs consequential was the old Henry Ford-ism of "If I'd asked people what they wanted, they'd have asked for a faster horse."

Dennis Ritchie did a damn fine job making what he did, but what he did was essentially just going with the flow; unix and C are like selling sugar to bees. They essentially "sell themselves"; they have qualities that programmers look at and inherently go "I want that!".

What Jobs did was going against the flow.

I'm going to go ahead and say something outrageous: we wouldn't have gui software without him. Or more accurately; it would be about as common as Lisp or Smalltalk. You'd have these isolated islands of gui development for a few specialist apps, but it would basically be workstation stuff, because only dedicated, specialist machines would be capable of running it.

What he understood was that most changes in technology aren't caused by historical inevitabilities or meritocratic ascendence of technology that's ready for prime-time, but are caused by social factors. GUIs had been technologically ready for years, but would only take off with the right social factors. One of these was to have a platform where all machines were guaranteed to have all the necessary ingredients to support GUIs; it was "safe" as a developer to do that, because you knew the entire addressable market could run your stuff. Furthermore, they took the "crazy" additional step of expressly forbidding non-gui ports from other platforms for a few years, and kept it quite difficult to do after that embargo ended. They adamantly wanted people to come up with brand-new, gui-based solutions to common app categories, rather than just porting over some famous app from a command-line paradigm.

This was critical - both MS Word, and Excel were born in that environment (yes, as mac programs, first), and it was particularly because Excel didn't get stabbed in the cradle by now-forgotten juggernauts like VisiCalc. If VisiCalc had been ported to the original mac, Excel wouldn't have stood a chance.

But that's emblematic of what it actually would have been like: if VisiCalc even could have been ported, that's what 90% of mac software would have been - command-line apps. Even native, non-ported apps are would have been mostly command-line apps, because they're just plain easier to write. At that point, it's not a Mac - it's not even a GUI machine then, and why would you even buy it if it didn't do anything unique? They had to artificially prevent that to "jump-start" us into a world where everything would actually all be gui stuff, across-the-board, no matter what, to allow us to experience what that's actually like.

----

That was the trick; it was a "gateway drug". Once you'd bought a machine to run Excel or Word, suddenly you had the ground conditions that made it possible for something like Photoshop or PageMaker to exist. You couldn't make a business out of apps like these without a large market of people already "forced" to be 100% gui-and-mouse. Spreadsheets are possible on a commandline, if awkward. Drawing apps (not plotting apps, drawing apps) are impossible without a mouse. And without that captive market, the business case to dare making them couldn't be made, nor could the "hey, that's only $100, let's buy that on a lark because I've already got a machine that can run it" rationale be possible.

This wasn't an accident. This was planned.

Much like a competent city planner; this wasn't a historical accident, but was a deliberate consequence of choices intended to achieve it. Jobs saw exactly what socio-political-economic forces were preventing this from happening, and set up an "artificial greenhouse" where these proverbial plants could take root, and grow big enough to survive outside the greenhouse.

----

Another great example of social forces like this was phone app stores.

We've had the tech to do (considerably simpler, but functionally similar) ones as early as 1995. Early Nokia phones easily could have done gameboy-level (or palmpilot-tier) apps on a mobile store, but somehow, nothing like that happened. For decades.

It simply was not a technological problem - it was a social and political problem. The phone vendors expressly forbade any app distribution, period. Apps were pre-bundled (and hard-locked) on phones as selling perks to move the hardware, not as a fungible quantity of their own.

Only a political deal, an "offer they couldn't refuse", was capable of breaking that logjam. Apple had to play the phone companies against each other, using a new piece of hardware that wouldn't remain novel for more than a few years, and using that as a bargaining chip to demand control-transfer over the software part of the phone. Famously, several of the most successful carriers like Verizon told them to (and I quote) "go f** themselves". Only a back-bench carrier, Cingular (later bought by AT&T) was willing to humor them, but once that Pandora's box was opened, the reluctance of all the other phone vendors quickly caved. After that, because they wanted to ensure Apple wouldn't achieve hegemony over the OS supply, they quickly became favorable towards allowing other phone OSes "with app distributions" to exist.

But it's exactly that - goading the phone companies into a position where they were "politically inclined to allow app markets to exist" that was Job's genius.

We wouldn't have "not had Android because there wouldn't have been an iPhone to copy". We would have not had Android because the phone carriers would never have allowed it to exist. Nobody would be allowed to sell it - we'd all be stuck on embedded symbian-or-whatever stuff with apps pre-flashed into the firmware.

----

Politics is the greatest barrier to tech innovation. Not "actually creating the tech". Jobs was "the politician we needed".

There's an EXTREMELY similar schtick with Elon Musk and SpaceX. Politics are the number one reason NASA and Boeing et al couldn't develop reusable rockets. It's particularly ironic in that case, because those companies had, in many cases, literally the very people who later made the breakthroughs, but those people simply were not allowed to spend their time working on it, at those companies. For almost half a century, in that case. That's how technological stagnation happens.

Re: undefined

#216
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman is a weird example - he talks about pickup culture and getting women to sleep with him. He also was a bad husband, spent a lot of time in a strip club drawing "art", and chased after Las Vegas Showgirls. I'm not certain he would have been cancelled - I think that's mostly projection - but it's useful to acknowledge he wasn't exactly a "good guy", despite his contributions to science. (The screed about the Naz…

> but it's useful to acknowledge he wasn't exactly a "good guy" What exactly constitutes a "good guy" for you? The only possible definition is somebody who wastes away his life, doesn't have fun, works all the times and gifts the discoveries of his endless hours of work to his subordinates so that they can claim as their own. Obviously rejects any compensation above minimum wage for the whole ordeal, so that he could…

To me, it's someone of character who doesn't treat the other sex like objects or puzzles to be solved. Or, if they do and learn from it, doesn't brag about the exploits in their memoirs.

There is also the dad test - would you want them dating your daughter?

Re: undefined

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "contributions" you're talking about someone elsewhere would have done it, and we can just imagine how better the world would be if those contributions would be for the benefit of the world and not for a company.

And even if someone else had made these "contributions," the nature of the them is dubious at best. The world is not a better place because of a phone, or a laptop, or a desktop. His one and only innovation was the ability to say "no." "No" to superfluous features, and "no" to tracking. That is a rare quality, but hardly unique. Apple (under his leadership) even attempted to trademark ideas that were not their own.[1…

Thanks for the links! And completely agree. That's what the media creates, and empty world full of false heroes.

Re: undefined

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overall software quality has dropped markedly at Apple and the hardware more uneven since he left. Mostly on the Mac. The butterfly keyboard and how Apple handled it, were terrible. And macOS quality had gone down release after release. But I have never had any serious software or hardware quality issues with the iPhone, Apple Watch, AirPods or any other products. It seems that they had just lost focus on the Mac…

> Mostly on the Mac. iOS 11 and 13 were both pretty crappy, not to mention weird misses like the Podcasts app. I can't see those releasing when Steve Jobs was at the helm, unless the situation was desperate. (An example of a desperate situation would be when you’re current products run Mac OS 9).

Counterexamples: iBooks and the iMovie rewrite that they just shipped with nowhere near feature parity.

Re: undefined

#219
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree, although there are all kinds of issues on iPhone as well. The one that bothers me most often is autocorrect sporadically changing correct English words to nonsense, or the complete inability to select certain bits of text properly (even in Apple apps).

I turned off autocorrect a year ago. It’s easier to correct typos by tapping them than have to proof read for whatever properly typed word Apple changed for no reason. The original iPhone had a much nicer cursor behavior and placement was easier with a tap or a hold-and-drag than it is to this day. I forget when this changed, I think it was about a decade ago.

Tap and hold on the spacebar works pretty great for cursor placement.

Re: undefined

#220
post #167
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He joked about how he would never unpack his bags upon arriving at a hotel because Steve would call him and say the hotel is shit so they had to move immediately after checking in. I think it’s those human connections he made that made him so great. This is awful, no? There are people like that who can never be pleased. Usually narcissists. I fail to see where the human connection is in being a crybaby Karen. Not t…

Maybe the hotels really were shit, and the response was somewhat reasonable?

That shouldn't have happened enough times that Ive developed a Pavlovian reflex to avoid unpacking his bag. Or if all hotels they stayed at were that shitty, perhaps some stern words should have been said to the people responsible for booking travel.

But this sounds like a case of someone being a diva. Hardly the mark of a great leader and role model. I've known people like this by the way. They act like any accommodation is beneath their princely person and berate the servant class members unfortunate enough to be assigned to caring for their majesty. It actually stems from a deep sense of insecurity and the need to overcompensate by appearing larger than life.

Obligatory disclaimer: Jobs still achieved great things and I like my iPhone just fine most days. We can celebrate his accomplishments while acknowledging that he was not a perfect person. None of us are.

Post reply on HN