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A generation of American men give up on college

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Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#211
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article (and others) just show that American men are starting to put their efforts into places that do reward them; namely, the trades and entrepreneurship. Good point. I did not intend to argue otherwise. To go into trade is not an irrational reaction on an individual level — quite the opposite in fact. What I did argue however, was that making it hard for people to get a higher education is not a good thing f…

You have still missed my point. The American dream was an effective, real thing for a long period of time. Most Americans today are descendants of poor immigrants that worked hard and gave their children a better quality of life. This wasn’t “a lottery” and your characterization of it as such is both historically misinformed and just ideological in nature. As I said, the issue is that this hard work no longer results…

I think you missed his point - the world has changed, its more complex, you cant keep applying strategy of 1900's and expect it to work.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Being white is definitely a leg up. Well, at least for me, a white guy, no college degree. Life is much easier. I don't think there is any support missing for us, that actually sounds hilarious. We need to work on lifting others up.

Based on the number of "affirmative-action" initiatives that I see all over the US, in many tech-companies (I don't know about other fields), I'd say that being a women, or black, is definitely a huge plus to get your foot through the door, with many recruitment programs blatantly saying they are only for minorities, which sounds to me like pretty much segregation in reverse, but that indeed seems to be the agenda of…

> with many recruitment programs blatantly saying they are only for minorities

Really? I understood that it was illegal to discriminate based on gender, race, etc in the US

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#213
post #118
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a certified EE and have a MA of fine Arts (film). Living in Europe where I had to pay 350 Euros per semester (which included a public transport ticket for the whole province), I didn't have to make a choice between the two. I did both because I was interested in both. After university I was well equiped to do freelancer work in my field and earned well. I don't think this "you have to be hard or else you won't s…

If you are a certified EE, you almost certainly paid for your own MA with your own taxes. So I don't have a problem with the MA, but the framing of "life is wonderful in Europe" is missing the fact that the only theoretical upside is you had less choice.

'You almost certainly paid for your own MA with your own taxes'

Thanks cap, there is always this one commenter who thinks we in europe don't understand how taxes work.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#214
post #194

COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. The moment that a serious, legitimate credential system appears, every average university will disappear overnight. We'll be left with an oligarch class that attends the…

Because you don't pay for instruction, you pay for examination and certification.

Which in turn have massively devalued, given the majority of the job market in most Western countries is only interested in the unicorn willing to eat old bread.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh, yes. Nobody would dare talk use the phrase toxic femininity. /s I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. In institutions, it is no-where near as discussed as much as "toxic masculinity", and probably discussing it would be be frowned upon. You can see mentions of "toxic masculinity" amongst United Nations literature, for example, which can't be said f…

> I think people certainly use the phrase "toxic femininity", but such examples are from the long-tail. Forbes and Psychology Today are long-tail low-relevance now? > What isn't said, is that the expectation to become a competent man who is tries to support his family can also be a positive example of masculinity Something along these lines is said in many substantial discussions of masculinity (including the one I p…

> Forbes and Psychology Today are long-tail low-relevance now?

The publications are not, their discussion of "toxic femininity" is. Discussions of "toxic masculinity" have long been the hegemony.

> Nobody is attacking competence as toxic

I see this happening a lot. Particularly, that men who are in positions of power (might own their own company, or run other companies) have only reached where they are, because they benefit from a corrupt patriarchy, not because of their competency and willingness to work.

> What is actually critiqued is a normalization of social violence, commenting on bullying or assault with "oh, boys will be boys," dismissal of feelings with "walk it off," the idea that real men don't go to therapy or turn to people for emotional help, etc etc.

Why is this called "toxic masculinity"? To flip it around, could you imagine "toxic femininity" being used to a describe a woman not wanting to pursue engineering because she thinks it isn't what women typically are seen to do? Why would you say it is "toxic masculinity" when a man doesn't want to talk about his feelings, because it isn't what men typically are seen to do?

The critique is accompanied with the idea that masculinity is itself a social construct, and if only boys/men could be freed from this social construct, then they will be free from "toxic" aspects of masculinity.

However arguably this isn't the case, and leads you to worse outcomes for men and boys. For example, to "stop bullying" a headteacher in the UK banned (typically boys) from playing football at break times. [1] I don't believe masculinity is entirely a social construct, and here boys are being deprived of ways to positively express their masculinity, through competition and team building. I also think there is a difference in how men and women typically bond, with men tending to bond more through activities.

Male bonding through shared activities is something that has declined a lot in the US (see the book "Bowling Alone"). If men are finding it more difficult today dealing with emotional issues, the answer may not be that they need to deal with their "toxic masculinity" by "speaking more", but they are actually suffering from their lack of ability to identify with other men through shared activities.

It isn't, in other words, their own fault, but rather a shift in society, which in this individual example, would rather ban a game that involves competition and winners, in case there are losers, or exclusion. "Toxic masculinity" isn't therefore the issue, rather it would be a lack of ability to express masculinity.

"Unstructured games can sometimes lead to nasty comments, aggressive behaviour or children feeling left out, she added." [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56568473

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother in law is an electrician. I had enough EE in college to change a light switch without burning the house down. However, that book-learnin' fell apart when confronted with troubleshooting a strangely wired room, and I got very polite while asking him over to bail me out. These fellows eschewing the ivory tower, where being of European extraction and bearing a Y-chromosome on the college campus is an indictme…

EE programs tend to focus on electronics, not electrical systems. But learning how house wiring works is a simple book away. But be careful - unlike electronics, house electrics can kill you. On the other hand, electricians have weird gaps in their knowledge. If I ask them to do something slightly out of the ordinary, this becomes apparent. For example, none of them understand inductive coupling, or even know what it…

I built my house with union labor (union shop) and found the level of competence higher than was typical with jo the random contractor (of course there are exceptions, and for some jobs it doesn’t matter).

Likewise with the machine shop a few jobs ago: although we weren’t a union shop, for some jobs we hired contractors in for the union members produced better work, especially for the safety critical stuff.

I have no experience with unions outside the skilled trades — certainly there are many horror stories.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have still missed my point. The American dream was an effective, real thing for a long period of time. Most Americans today are descendants of poor immigrants that worked hard and gave their children a better quality of life. This wasn’t “a lottery” and your characterization of it as such is both historically misinformed and just ideological in nature. As I said, the issue is that this hard work no longer results…

I think you missed his point - the world has changed, its more complex, you cant keep applying strategy of 1900's and expect it to work.

…but we aren’t still applying the strategy of 1900s. That’s the entire point of my posts.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#220
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how woman feel reading such comments. Men dominated better paying jobs and positions of power since forever. It took 50+ years between equal rights before the law to equal opportunities in the labour market and education. Men still have every opportunity a woman has. In addition, they are still recognized more for leading positions. They also dominate about every trade related job. Yet, they are 'left withou…

No one ever stopped women from pursuing career in high-frequency trading or anything else. No one ever stopped women from inventing Amazon or Microsoft from their garage. No one ever stopped women from choosing to graduated in science, maths, finance, rather than art, litterature, or "gender studies".

One might think the whole sexism and gender roles thing and would be discouraging woman from perusing certain fields.
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