Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd go for 48VDC. 12V would need some fat wiring to avoid incurring voltage drops for normal amounts of loads. 48V is nice because you can use much thinner wiring, and it's about the highest "safe" voltage to accidentally touch with normal dry skin.
48V would definitely be a big ouch or worse for a kid sticking a wet finger inside or something. 12V is completely safe in all circumstances.
Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
211–220 of 233 posts
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#212So, I used to be "team DC" as well, but after learning up a bit, I realized there are still a lot of advantages to AC in the 21st Century. One reason DC power is more viable nowadays is (as others here have mentioned) the use of DC-DC converters. They internally actually use AC to do the conversion (usually at much higher frequency to save weight and cost on inductive elements). But they're not super cheap (not cheap…
DC-DC converters are cheaper than the classic transformers. There's a reason that you almost never see the classic "big chunk of iron" wall-warts anymore: not only are they inefficient, they're more expensive.
> Low voltage DC (like 12V) requires MUCH thicker cables for the same power, which means a lot more copper (and copper mining). Typical line voltage can be very lightweight.
Yes, a low voltage DC bus doesn't make much sense except for specific applications. Even in small spaces like recreational boats it's more common to use 24V or 48V these days. I think around 50V makes sense, as it's not very dangerous so there are fewer safety regulations. Look at PoE, for example. Unprotected runs of fairly thin cable transmitting up to 52V.
> With DC, nothing is really at the same voltage, so you need DC-DC converters all over anyway, so you're not saving anything (although not losing much, either!).
DC-DC buck converters are the simplest, cheapest, and most efficient category of power converters at the moment. (Of course a specific converter may be worse than a specific converter of a different category, but this is broadly true) Buck converters that support up to 50V are only marginally more expensive than lower-voltage ones. As an electronics engineer, I would be very happy if I could get away with only needing buck converters from now on; they're very easy.
If the DC source is required to be galvanically isolated and to have it's own transient suppression than the DC devices can get away with much less input protection than AC devices require. Could be a significant cost savings.
> Another important thing that really drives some of the advantages is: breakers, relays, and (much less important) current measurements of existing cables. [...]
Absolutely. I don't see high voltage/high power DC becoming popular in homes any time soon for that reason. There shouldn't be any difficulty with arcing at 50V though. (Yes, switch contacts still arc but it's not any more difficult than 120VAC) Also high power applications in houses tend to work just fine on AC (motors and restive heaters), though that may be a chicken-and-egg thing.
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#213Solar energy is cheap, as in $0.03/kWhr. (PG&E charges you $0.30/kHWhr.) The best inverters convert solar DC to household AC at 97.6 % efficiency. [1] Adding more solar is a question of adding another panel. The inversion loss is a small price to pay for safe power. [2] DC is probably not coming back as a way to wire houses and buildings. [1] https://www4.enphase.com/sites/default/files/downloads/suppo... [2] https:/…
otherwise you chain a bunch of panels together in series and track the max power point there. This means that you don't quite optimise for each panel
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
DC-DC actually converts DC to high freq. AC 1st, then uses a transformer and then rectifiers, smoothing, feedback, etc. If no isolation, i.e. common ground is fine, a choke instead of a transformer is fine too.
One possible benefit of a DC-DC circuit is that the converter can choose its switching frequency. That can give some room for optimizations for power or size.
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
"it's often banned in many home owners' associations, and banned in many apartment leases" That seems extremely inappropariate. Are there no restrictions on what they can ban, like can they ban children or cooking curries?
There are a few restrictions, but not very many. You agree to them before you move in, so you are expected to not move there in the first place if you don't like the rules. I just refuse to live in one which solves it for me.
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have your ever seen what it's like to wash clothes by hand? It's like a 3 hour hour process. Its arduous, tedious, and keeoing the house in order used to be a full-time job Washing machine has done more to liberate women than all political efforts combined.
I think the distinction is we have 50X more clothing to wash. And it's partly because washing is so easy. I have a family of four and spend a lot of time folding clean clothes.
My grandma really spent a lot of time washing clothes, so i dont think this is a significant factor
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#217I'm not sure I care whether it's AC or DC, but it might be nice to have some parallel off-the-grid wiring that comes from a solar-charged battery and will run during a power outage. What would work best for this?
They have an automatic transfer switch built in for anti-islanding (your mains entry goes through it), so it disconnects you from the grid if it goes down but your local side still operates. I think it can also have two AC outputs, one for loads powered by either grid or battery, and one that is only on when the grid is present (if you have a grid). You can use any type of battery so you’re not locked in (LiFePO4 are some of the best at the moment).
I have an AC solar inverter and 5kW of panels on my roof, which would be about enough, but I’m going to add another four panels (bit less than 1.5kW) that are DC-coupled through an MPPT charter (Victron SmartSolar MPPT) to solve the bootstrap problem for prolonged outages (which are very rare here, but still). Not sure if that’s the normal term, but I mean where the batteries run out, so without the grid to put some charge in them, the inverter/charger can’t produce an AC waveform for the PV inverter to lock to, so the PV inverter won’t switch on. Having some solar on the DC charger lets that work.
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
And this is why it's useful to check the literature, individual results might provide misleading anecdotes. > This paper reports on a review of the European literature about the impacts of having an electrically-assisted bike available to use, together with results from a trial in the UK city of Brighton, where 80 employees were loaned an electrically-assisted bike for a 6–8 week period. In the Brighton trial, three-…
Another big factor might be that I live in the US. Generally speaking, everything you want to go to is a lot farther away here.
Assuming that the 9 mile limit holds, that is a pretty long distance in most cities. I live in the suburban edge of a small city, and downtown is only 6.4 miles away for me. Even when I lived in LA, 9 miles was more than enough for 80% of my trips or so.
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are a few restrictions, but not very many. You agree to them before you move in, so you are expected to not move there in the first place if you don't like the rules. I just refuse to live in one which solves it for me.
But they can change the rules, right?
The reason that both HOAs and landlords disallow outdoor clothes drying is that it's seen as an eyesore. People associate clotheslines full of clothes with images of testaments in NYC in the 1920s and representing overpopulation and or immigration.
Landlords in particular don't want people hanging things from the apartments- even objects like small satellite dishes are often not allowed.
What many don't know is that in the US, many of these rules are simply null and void:
https://www.sightline.org/2012/02/21/clothesline-bans-void-i...
The challenge is that this requires a great deal of work on the part of the homeowner, and in doing so they would be entering into a conflict with the HOA. They would win in a court, but they would need to put up the money to fight in court. Even if/when they won, the HOA would make life unpleasant for them and likely retaliate in some other way.
Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)
#220We're currently in the process of designing a house that we hope to build early next year. One thing that I dream of doing is lighting the entire house with LEDs wired in a low voltage DC "network." Even better if they're addressable, dimmable, even RGB recolorable. Power over Ethernet would be a pretty cool way of doing it if it was practical...that way you get the data to control the lights as well as the power to…
My house was built in 2018. The smoke alarms are low voltage. I remember the electrician, who installed them, told me they are DC. Thermostats and doorbells are low-voltage AC. The transformer is standard. If you can find 24-volt AC lights, an open-minded electrician should be able to figure it out. Related: My old house built in the 1960s had an intercom system that was ripped out by a previous owner. I found a warm…