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Where has all the productivity gone?

johndcook.com

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Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#211

Post by Godel_unicode »

forcry wrote: post #208
Godel_unicode wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and what's with these mechanised looms, hand-operated is fine.

>hand-operated is fine... May be it was. You make a poor argument, because resources are limited, and "progress" will have to wait at some point. Human race can either opt into slower progress to match the available resources, or be selected out. Indiscriminate growth is a hallmark of cancerous things. You can detect it, cut it out and attempt to survive, or surely die with it.

Progress doesn't have to imply more consumption, there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources.

Finally, with regard to poor arguments, you should probably read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#212

Post by forcry »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #211
forcry wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>hand-operated is fine... May be it was. You make a poor argument, because resources are limited, and "progress" will have to wait at some point. Human race can either opt into slower progress to match the available resources, or be selected out. Indiscriminate growth is a hallmark of cancerous things. You can detect it, cut it out and attempt to survive, or surely die with it.

Progress doesn't have to imply more consumption, there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources. Finally, with regard to poor arguments, you should probably read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

> there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources.

Obviously that is not the kind of progress we were talking about here in the context of transitioning to 5G here.

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#213

Post by Godel_unicode »

forcry wrote: post #212
Godel_unicode wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progress doesn't have to imply more consumption, there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources. Finally, with regard to poor arguments, you should probably read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

> there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources. Obviously that is not the kind of progress we were talking about here in the context of transitioning to 5G here.

It's literally exactly what we're talking about. You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g (aside from the significantly increased density per tower requiring fewer towers) is all the energy savings baked into 5g-nr. Try not to believe the hype.

https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2019/9/energy-consumption-5...

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#214

Post by forcry »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #213
forcry wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources. Obviously that is not the kind of progress we were talking about here in the context of transitioning to 5G here.

It's literally exactly what we're talking about. You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g (aside from the significantly increased density per tower requiring fewer towers) is all the energy savings baked into 5g-nr. Try not to believe the hype. https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2019/9/energy-consumption-5...

> You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g

True.

> Up to 15 percent energy savings with software features

'Upto 15 percent' sounds alike it is a very optimistic estimate, (you know when they advertise 'upto 50% discount' most of the products are discounted at much lower rate). And it does not seem that this power saving is also dependent on network traffic. So I am not really convinced.

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#215

Post by [deleted] »

forcry wrote: post #214
Godel_unicode wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's literally exactly what we're talking about. You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g (aside from the significantly increased density per tower requiring fewer towers) is all the energy savings baked into 5g-nr. Try not to believe the hype. https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2019/9/energy-consumption-5...

> You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g True. > Up to 15 percent energy savings with software features 'Upto 15 percent' sounds alike it is a very optimistic estimate, (you know when they advertise 'upto 50% discount' most of the products are discounted at much lower rate). And it does not seem that this power saving is also dependent on network traffic. So I am not really convinced.

[deleted]

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#216

Post by perl4ever »

rfrey wrote: post #210
perl4ever wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unclear on the gap between the "notion" and the protests in France. The Wikipedia page ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend ) is kind of inconsistent - it says that a revenue neutral tax is a "conservative" idea, then it has more about a "universal climate income" under "social justice". Widespread is not the same thing as generally accepted. I think I've been reading vaguely hostile stuff rece…

I think one of the reasons is that it is a market-based solution that allows companies to pollute as long as they are willing to pay for it. Many progressives prefer an approach of behaviour and lifestyle modifications.

>I think one of the reasons is that it is a market-based solution that allows companies to pollute as long as they are willing to pay for it. Many progressives prefer an approach of behaviour and lifestyle modifications.

I don't see how that hypothesis is compatible with regarding climate change as an existential threat.

I mean, maybe it is potentially the end of the world for practical purposes, and maybe it isn't.

But if it is, then concentrating on behavior modifications that are appealing to impose independently of CO2 levels seems like an expression of either a desire for human extinction or of a disbelief in the problem.

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#217

Post by mdp2021 »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #213
forcry wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's been a ton of progress in the field of recycling for instance. Also in renewable power sources. Obviously that is not the kind of progress we were talking about here in the context of transitioning to 5G here.

It's literally exactly what we're talking about. You seem to be unaware that one of the major benefits of 5g (aside from the significantly increased density per tower requiring fewer towers) is all the energy savings baked into 5g-nr. Try not to believe the hype. https://www.ericsson.com/en/blog/2019/9/energy-consumption-5...

> requiring fewer towers

It is the first time I hear this: the usual narrative is that it would require more towers. (And the idea of the emitters being more pervasive in the territory is one of the main concerns of some).

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#218

Post by pas »

satyrnein wrote: post #64
MattGaiser wrote: post #24

> The Great Dissipation. One of the shocks about entering the world of work was how little I often got done in any given day because I was in a meeting or had to deal with some form or was waiting on permission or many other things. I have had whole days disappear with nothing much to show for them at the end. I am sure I am not the only one. And even though it is almost assuredly known that this happens, nobody seem…

Meanwhile, one of the great shocks that I experienced when becoming a manager was that I had no better solution to keeping a large group of people aligned and unblocked than a bunch of meetings. Sure, I tinkered around the edges a bit, but it's not fundamentally different. Solutions welcome!

> a large group of people aligned and unblocked than a bunch of meetings

Could you explain this a bit? Why weren't the interested parties talking to each other in smaller groups? Wasn't there a shared base vision? What caused the blocks? What caused the decoherence of alignments? Also, how many meetings? How many people? Thanks!

Re: Where has all the productivity gone?

#219

Post by pas »

breck wrote: post #53

6) We've made laws that greatly restrict our abilities to use these magical new technologies in their most productive ways. Google Books was the canary in the coal mine. Remember when Google was going to organize all the world's information and make it accessible and useful? Then the copyright lobby attacked, and over a decade later that project (which is so obviously a quantum leap in terms of what it could do for h…

> which is so obviously a quantum leap in terms of what it could do for human productivity

that's a very strong claim. and it's very likely, unfortunately, false.

we have the great classics all available for free in a multitude of formats. a lot of works slowly but surely mature into the public domain each year, yet there's no discernible productivity growth based on the availability of books.

also, this sadly goes for research papers too. sure, fuck Elsevier and the whole paper mill industry, but the limiting factor is expertise, tenured spots, academic integrity. (see the replicability crisis in psychology, in particular how the many times the whole scientific enterprise is backwards: https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2011/01/11/one_more_t... and https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2016/09/21/what-has-h... )

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