Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone? • Hacker News Board

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#211

Post by bumby » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

cbozeman wrote: post #188

whall6 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. This is how social safety nets get demonized by politicians, and it works. A factory worker and mother of three who was making car parts from the start of COVID-19 until now and was never laid off and who never had the option of quitting work, fucking hates someon…

>Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working?

FWIW, I agree with you. But this is a moral take, not an economist’s. I think most economists would say people act to maximize utility. In the real world I think it’s both but it’s very hard to regulate/incentivize morals

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#212

Post by jonathanlb » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

whall6 wrote: post #151

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of this stuff about workers disappearing and people reconsidering their lives is pretty much a sideshow of projected narrative that is detached from what is really going on. Well said. We’ve been bombarded with news articles and thought pieces about how COVID has forever changed the workforce, how people are refusing to work jobs they don’t like, how people are quitting en masse because their employers won’t al…

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

It might be important to distiguish doing "nothing" from not being on the job market.

It's possible to contribute to society by making art, writing, cooking, spending time with family, caring for others, etc. as well as self-actualizing via exercise, reading, meditation, and so on.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#213

Post by effingwewt » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

vladvasiliu wrote: post #205

cbozeman wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. This is how social safety nets get demonized by politicians, and it works. A factory worker and mother of three who was making car parts from the start of COVID-19 until now and was never laid off and who never had the option of quitting work, fucking hates someon…

I mostly agree with you. However, it may not (always) be that simple. The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees, with not enough people applying and even employees who were there before Covid hit leaving. I don't know how actually true this is, but when they (the media) ask people why they won't go back, the main reason doesn't seem to b…

Here in California every restaurant/fast food place is hiring. They all list the things they offer (PTO, 401k-no matching what you put in, and that's it). What they don't put on the signs is what they pay (minimum wage every single time), or the hours (always part time, always weekends, mostly if not always nights.

But obviously it's just that no one wants to work, it couldn't possibly be because no one wants part-time (especially because they change your days/hours and wait till the last minute to give you the next week's schedule so you can't plan around it and get another job). It couldn't possibly be because part-time minimum wage day-shifting jobs are literally worthless as these places are finding out.

I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#214

Post by nimbius » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #88

It is strange that the top known factors for this are not even mentioned in this or other similar news stories. First, closing of schools caused large numbers of women to leave the workforce in order to care for children. Until schools are fully open and day care is available those women will probably not be going back to work. Second, all markets are cultivated things. Employers in the most troubled sectors have rec…

Anecdotal but...can we mention burn-out? as a "blue collar" worker i dont think anyone mentions it enough.

I have a coworker who left a 9-5 body shop making decent money as a painter for a medical billing job that was closer to her father in 2020. she came back to that body shop just two weeks ago because she was pulling non-stop mandatory overtime in a salary position that treated her like trash. she never even gave notice she was quitting, just stopped showing up.

I have a friend who quit his bartending job to work at a grocery store and had the same experience. mandatory overtime, limited breaks, and the angriest customers. He quit about seven months into the pandemic and picked up a CDL position as a regional truck driver.

these "hero" fields that exist as a sort of meat grinder during covid have chewed through all the social credit most people are willing to give them.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#215

Post by vladvasiliu » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #213

vladvasiliu wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree with you. However, it may not (always) be that simple. The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees, with not enough people applying and even employees who were there before Covid hit leaving. I don't know how actually true this is, but when they (the media) ask people why they won't go back, the main reason doesn't seem to b…

Here in California every restaurant/fast food place is hiring. They all list the things they offer (PTO, 401k-no matching what you put in, and that's it). What they don't put on the signs is what they pay (minimum wage every single time), or the hours (always part time, always weekends, mostly if not always nights. But obviously it's just that no one wants to work, it couldn't possibly be because no one wants part-ti…

> I keep hearing owners whine and bemoan their lack of workers. What I have never heard of, not once, is an owner making less profit to pay their workers better to get the loyalty and hard work they want but refuse to pay for.

I agree with you, but do those places actually make a lot of profit? Over here they seem to be pretty fragile operations, so I don't think there's that much they can shave off their profit and give to the workers.

I'm wondering whether, maybe, there are simply too many of those restaurants?

The reasoning goes "yeah, but if I raise my prices, people will go next door". Which is probably true for your random restaurant. But then maybe the issue is there's too many of them?

But of course, up until now, this was workable because many people were willing to put up with the bad conditions you've described for a low wage.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#216

Post by switch007 » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #56

pydry wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BBC has for a long long time been more sensitive to the concerns of employers and investors rather than employees or the unemployed. This has mostly been as a result of aping the trends followed by the rest of the private media in the UK since the 1970s. They already had a business section and even rolled out a new capital section a few years ago. No word yet on when theyll get a section dedicated to worker news.

Why wouldn't they? Workers are generally not allowed to talk about specifics of work to media.

I think that’s a really poor excuse. People can discuss anonymously and about recent prior jobs (being slightly less bound by contractual gagging, or under less threat of being sued)

Journalists can apply for jobs and do an exposé too.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#217

Post by nuker » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #164

whall6 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

And the employer perspective: Why would I try to compete with unemployment benefits that are ending in a few months? The situation is temporary and has obviously causal factors that are coming to an end soon (unemployment benefits, school out for summer). Journalists seem to be going out of their way to ignore these and pretend that something else is happening.

> with unemployment benefits that are ending in a few months?

I don't think so. Zeta variant is coming.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#218

Post by dcolkitt » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

stripline wrote: post #171

info781 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you offer an American a choice between more money or more vacation, they will take the money, for the most part.

That's because American's can't afford vacations without more money.

Americans have far more disposable incomes than Europeans. It's not even close. Average household consumption in the US is 65% higher than Germany.[1]

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household...

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#219

Post by dazc » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

whall6 wrote: post #151

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of this stuff about workers disappearing and people reconsidering their lives is pretty much a sideshow of projected narrative that is detached from what is really going on. Well said. We’ve been bombarded with news articles and thought pieces about how COVID has forever changed the workforce, how people are refusing to work jobs they don’t like, how people are quitting en masse because their employers won’t al…

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

One of the UK employers currently moaning about a lack of workers had a policy of only employing people for 16 hours a week since this was the optimum hours a person could work whilst still receiving tax credits and housing benefit.

Around 10 years ago I was in the labour market willing to do pretty much anything and these kinds of jobs accounted for most of what was available.

Since I wasn't 'on benefits' I was at the other end of the equation. What I really wanted was a chance to work my way out of financial trouble - these kind of jobs only offered the opposite of this.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#220

Post by ericd » Sat, Jul 31, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

ren_engineer wrote: post #179

honkdaddy wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you call it if we had 5 positions at the widget factory, but only 4 prospective employees looking for work? Wouldn't that constitute a worker shortage, as no matter how high I make my wages as a widget foreman, there are still less workers than there are open positions? Or is that not something that could really happen outside of a textbook problem?

pay more money or any other incentive that would cause more people to be interested in the job. Why do you think FAANG has hundreds of applications for each job while startups struggle to hire?

Paying more is relatively easy to do when your company makes a few million per employee. The vast majority of companies aren’t blessed with pseudo-monopolies that allow them to do that.