Earlier quoted context omitted.
For what? What client?
Transferring huge files. The client is FileZilla.
Why not use SFTP or rsync at this point?
Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
211–220 of 350 posts
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#212Didnt Chrome remove ftp first. Is Firefox just following suit. Need to check. Mozilla's explanation/justification here for removing ftp is quite flimsy. It presumes there could never, ever be any possible situation in which a user wants to use a browser for ftp. Whether now or in the future. It just does not add up. There are no specific references to ftp-based exploits, or other examples of how ftp is harmful. Who u…
> Mozilla's explanation/justification here for removing ftp is quite flimsy
That's just how you do big changes these days. Especially if you're Mozilla.
Here's a step-by-step guide to how it works:
1. Decide that you want to drop something because it's not shiny anymore.
2. Scream "OMG WE NEED TO DO THIS FOR SECURITY!!!"
3. Watch while people commend you for taking such a brave stance for "teh security"
See also: webextensions.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
FTP has been related to web browsing since the beginning of the web 31 years ago. For maybe a decade (the first third of the web so far), most of the WWW was on FTP servers—not just most software downloads, but also most HTML pages. Web browsers are a much better interface to FTP servers than dedicated FTP clients, because you can click a link on an HTML page (either a statically generated directory, possibly on the…
I'd just like to add to this that ftp is a relatively simple protocol, not particularly complicated to implement. It's not a constantly fluctuating standard that requires a team of 50 developers to keep pace with. Supporting FTP isn't some big technical challenge. The code has been there in the firefox codebase for nearly 20 years now, running just fine. All you need to do to continue to support ftp is nothing at all…
> I also find the incredibly vague and nonspecific "but security!" scaremongering language to be quite hyperbolic
Well, there is nothing vague here: FTP is a cleartext protocol, and we're migrating towards protocols that provide integrity and encryption.
Sometimes I think it's a generational thing. I find it hard to accept this, growing up with testing all protocols with Telnet and so on. But unfortunately the Internet has changed a lot, and especially bad and unscrupulous people learned how to find all possible and sometimes very creative ways to abuse whatever had been created in the past. So I understand that cleartext POP3, IMAP, SMTP and FTP authentication should go away.
Anonymous FTP is a slightly different beast though. Security-wise, it has the same weaknesses as regular HTTP. But nobody is removing HTTP support from web browsers (yet). So I'm a bit sorry to see it removed from FireFox. There are many better things to copy from Chrome.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
The former two (rsync, scp) are a lot more complex than ftp(s), since they both rely on at least some subset of ssh, plus some other stuff. They're not really suited for safely linking to unauthenticated downloads, either. https doesn't let you also manage your files with the same protocol/daemon without other stuff on top of, or alongside, it.
When is the "complexity" of SSH ever a problem? If you need a tiny implementation for an embedded device, use dropbear instead of OpenSSH. WebDAV lets you manage files over the same protocol (but.. why?)
> When is the "complexity" of SSH ever a problem? If you need a tiny implementation for an embedded device, use dropbear instead of OpenSSH.
We're in a thread concerning the removal of FTP from Firefox because having extra code around you don't strictly need is, the argument goes, expensive and dangerous. Given the context, I don't think any justification for extra complexity being, per se, something worth worrying about, is needed.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
FTP has been related to web browsing since the beginning of the web 31 years ago. For maybe a decade (the first third of the web so far), most of the WWW was on FTP servers—not just most software downloads, but also most HTML pages. Web browsers are a much better interface to FTP servers than dedicated FTP clients, because you can click a link on an HTML page (either a statically generated directory, possibly on the…
> but FTP is still a widely used protocol. I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I landed on a page with FTP or had to use FTP in any way. Even lists of file downloads are http pages where I just click on the file.
The Apple 2 Asimov repo is FTP and something I use every week.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
So your argument is that because you haven't used it lately, nobody does? Seems legit.
Yeah actually it is. I’m a pretty technical user and use the web and the internet a lot. I can’t think of a scenario where I would need FTP in 2021. Can you point me at one?
I used ftp multiple times this year, mostly for getting technical documentation and firmware. Two examples from my browsing history from last month:
ftp://ftp.kontron.com/Products/Motherboards/Industrial/D3544-S_Mini-STX/Documentation/ ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/panasonic/call_center/firmware/
One advantage of ftp is that it is much easier to have access control on different resources than dealing with .htaccess files so it was popular with customer service.
The consequence will be that many ftp servers still hosting software/firmware for legacy products will be taken down and their content lost.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
FTP has been related to web browsing since the beginning of the web 31 years ago. For maybe a decade (the first third of the web so far), most of the WWW was on FTP servers—not just most software downloads, but also most HTML pages. Web browsers are a much better interface to FTP servers than dedicated FTP clients, because you can click a link on an HTML page (either a statically generated directory, possibly on the…
You're saying it was normal (and is even today) to show HTML files over ftp links? I've never seen a browser do HTML over ftp, and while I am a youngster compared to HTTP (I stared to do web stuff in the early 2000's) the sites where I've seen that had both HTTP and FTP modes the ftp mode only downloaded the file, it did not show it. > More broadly, this is a tradeoff between the traditional vision of the WWW as a va…
> You're saying it was normal (and is even today) to show HTML files over ftp links? I've never seen a browser do HTML over ftp
Firefox supported this completely until Fx61, when it disabled FTP subresources on HTTPS. Even then, you could still view HTML pages served over FTP until Fx70.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
The issue isn't that FTP is all of a sudden an important protocol. It has been chugging away in the background without much fanfare for decades. The issue with Firefox removing it largely comes down to convenience: it's been included in browsers for so long that it's now the primary means (in some industries) for non-technical users to access files. This whole ordeal kind of reminds me of IE8. Whether good or bad, co…
Is it really the responsibility of Firefox to maintain FTP support when everyone else has dropped it, just so that a tiny fraction people don't have to learn a new tool and/or modernize infrastructure that's out of date?
I wouldn't say they're responsible for maintaining it. But I think it's fair to question their decisions. As I mentioned above, one of their principles specifically calls out that the internet depends on interoperability and various protocols.
I don't really understand the argument that if everyone else drops support that Firefox should too. Firefox could champion themselves as continuing to support various protocols and live the principles they set out for themselves.
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
FTP has been related to web browsing since the beginning of the web 31 years ago. For maybe a decade (the first third of the web so far), most of the WWW was on FTP servers—not just most software downloads, but also most HTML pages. Web browsers are a much better interface to FTP servers than dedicated FTP clients, because you can click a link on an HTML page (either a statically generated directory, possibly on the…
I have seen FTP links for big downloads in the past. Never, not once have I seen HTML files served over FTP. Who in the hell ever did that?! WHY??
Here is a real world example: http://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/08/chrome-murders-ftp-li...
Re: Stopping FTP support in Firefox 90
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
So your argument is that because you haven't used it lately, nobody does? Seems legit.
Yeah actually it is. I’m a pretty technical user and use the web and the internet a lot. I can’t think of a scenario where I would need FTP in 2021. Can you point me at one?
ftp://apple.asimov.net
Archive of apple 2 software and documentation. I use it a lot.