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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#211

Post by bjoli »

mlang23 wrote: post #165
hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

Why, exactly? For not kissing the rainbow flag? Or for opposing illegal immigration? Those are the topics presented through media lately, and the argument is rather weak. In fact, I think many politically centered people dont actually sympathize with this "you are not hip enough, you have to leave"-mentality.

The recent politicising the courts, and the political aftermath, is bad enough to warrant serious action from the EU. Orban has had undemocratic tendencies for a long time, and his blatant misuse of power has had all spectrums of the political field concerned since we'll before the 2015 EU migration crisis.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#212

Post by pell »

mlang23 wrote: post #165
hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

Why, exactly? For not kissing the rainbow flag? Or for opposing illegal immigration? Those are the topics presented through media lately, and the argument is rather weak. In fact, I think many politically centered people dont actually sympathize with this "you are not hip enough, you have to leave"-mentality.

I am really not sure where this notion is coming from and I've seen it repeated in this thread multiple times now. The reason Orban's government is considered dangerous within the EU context has never been because of his stance on immigration or that he "doesn't kiss the rainbow flag". The problem is that his government has been attacking and dismantling democratic institutions such as academia, the media, NGOs and even the judiciary to some extend. The critique and this development started long before the refugee situation in 2015.

This has really nothing to do with immigration or LGTBQ policy. A number of EU countries are not really champions of immigration or LGTBQ+ matters either (Slowakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece). This idea that the issue is about him or his government not being "hip" or "woke" enough is really odd to say the least.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#213

Post by krzyk »

_abox wrote: post #146
roenxi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

> I know nothing about Hungary. But I am quite confident that a happy, well organised society labouring under the grip of sound economic policies tends not to radicalise very easily. I've travelled a lot in Eastern Europe and I think I know where this is coming from. When communism fell, people rejoiced in joining the EU and getting all the benefits of a free society. However what really happened was that those spoil…

> but in Eastern Europe they moved straight to a caricature of hard neoliberalism

Please don't generalise. Have you been to Czech Republic or Poland? There are no such neoliberalisms (I would say same about Hungary, but considering Orban, I'm not sure, I haven't been there)

We have good welfare and educated people don't beg on streets, not to mention plastic bags on windows.

Your description looks more like one for Ukraine.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#214

Post by 3np »

mlang23 wrote: post #165
hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

Why, exactly? For not kissing the rainbow flag? Or for opposing illegal immigration? Those are the topics presented through media lately, and the argument is rather weak. In fact, I think many politically centered people dont actually sympathize with this "you are not hip enough, you have to leave"-mentality.

While there's a fair amount of hypocrisy from other countries going on, the core issues are more about human rights and fascism than about hipness.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#215

Post by cmmeur01 »

joelbluminator wrote: post #197
andrepd wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; It's easy to see that it's in my interest to kill a woman on an unlit street and nick her purse. What kind of argument is this?? It's especially aggravating since so much propaganda comes out touting Israel as a democracy and decrying the savage Palestinians for being a dictatorship.

It's probably not in your interest since you'd go to jail and the whole metaphor seems quite simplistic to me. Since you seem to be talking about ethics, not interests, If Israel supports Egypt's El-Sisi is that immoral? Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse. Same can be said about Israel's support to the Palestinian Authority. It's quite difficult to know what the right thing to do is. Israel wants good re…

They support who they can control, that’s it.

Nothing to do with them thinking one is better for the citizens living under their selected rulers control.

Israel doesn’t care about half the people within its borders. Saying they choose who to support based on how that person will treat their citizens is laughable.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#216

Post by krzyk »

js8 wrote: post #206
rini17 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4" Oversimplified view. There was common interest of V4 against accepting refugees, but Czech & Slovak rep. generally support EU's side in judicial and media independence issues. Elsewhere, German automakers have vast investments in the eastern EU and they have been holding Merkel back against Orban, together with conservative faction of CDU.

> Czech & Slovak rep. generally support EU's side in judicial and media independence issues In Czechia, I wish that was true, but our current prime minister Andrej Babis is actually openly admiring Orban, and playing up the same nationalistic politics (before the upcoming elections in October). I am not sure he would necessarily support media and judicial independence if it came down to that.

And here in Poland we already have problems since few years, people that oppose judicial and media independence are in charge, elected mostly by elderly and eastern parts of the country.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#217

Post by lloydjones »

roenxi wrote: post #105
Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

I'm not sure I agree. In the UK, the lower middle class are (to generalise) materially well-off; they own their own homes, they have a couple of cars, they have large televisions, one partner does not have to work, etc.

And through pure boredom/decadence, they were radicalised through years of negative messaging from the populist press into 'caring' about things like Brexit, immigration, welfare claimants, etc.

These are people that have most of their needs met and are comfortable, yet their emotional buttons were pushed over the course of years into making them foam at the mouth about things they largely don't fully grasp and that definitely don't have an impact on their lives.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#218

Post by germandiago »

I came to the conclusion that politicians are a big problem. Not sure we can get rid of them but they are.

FWIW I just see them use the money of others for their own purposes coactively and provoke a lot of polarization. Many times with bad intention for selfish interests. I am talking about ALL of them.

I think people should be able (Hungarian case at hand) to choose whether they want certain contents to be taught at certain age for their kids. No matter which ones. It should be a free to choose thing.

The minimum stuff we must all agree upon should be not killing, discriminating, etc. in legal terms. But when you try to force people to like or dislike something, instead of respecting others (whether they like or not other people ideas) then you have this highly polarized environment because you will always find the other half resisting, since it is imposed contents highly ideological.

I think that things could be way better with fewer of these people.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#219

Post by [deleted] »

cmmeur01 wrote: post #215
joelbluminator wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not in your interest since you'd go to jail and the whole metaphor seems quite simplistic to me. Since you seem to be talking about ethics, not interests, If Israel supports Egypt's El-Sisi is that immoral? Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse. Same can be said about Israel's support to the Palestinian Authority. It's quite difficult to know what the right thing to do is. Israel wants good re…

They support who they can control, that’s it. Nothing to do with them thinking one is better for the citizens living under their selected rulers control. Israel doesn’t care about half the people within its borders. Saying they choose who to support based on how that person will treat their citizens is laughable.

[deleted]

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#220

Post by krzyk »

f6v wrote: post #132
poisonborz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they did. I also think Lukashenko would have also won most of his elections if they were democratic, losing maybe only the last one marginally. Same with the Chinese communist party. To no surprise - if your people sit on all levels of the government, if you control the media and the public discourse, if you persecute anyone having any chance against you, you win. This doesn't mean other countries need to suppor…

This sort of implies people can’t think for themselves. By this logic, the liberal countries are only liberal because the media tells the people to be liberal. Maybe you’re right.

Nope, because there are different media available, and one can watch/listen/read those.

In Orban like states you loose that free access to all media and you are forced into the state one.

For those that are not aware countries that were under former Soviet boots all have a state television, which is the default source of information for older people (they are used to it), whichever party wins the elections sets up this TV broadcast to their liking.

All other TV broadcasters need to have a special privilege approved by the state - do you see what can happen here?

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