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Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

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Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#211

Post by smeej »

rocqua wrote: post #177
Netcob wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos for sticking to it, I'm not sure I could have done that in your place! I'm always horrified at stories of parents who act this way. "Do it because I say so, I'm infallible as far as you are concerned, if you disobey me I'll hurt you."

> "if you disobey me I'll hurt you." I think the message is slightly different, and worse. I think the message is "If you disobey me, you have hurt me, and I will need to retaliate"

This just sent a chill up my spine. This was EXACTLY the story of my childhood, except it wasn't just "disobey."

It was also "question."

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#212

Post by smeej »

teekert wrote: post #194
momento wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father was very strongly against my decision to get into web development (2012) and he echoed this sentiment heavily. I distinctly remember him yelling at me as a teenager; "you'll be living under a bridge in 5 years if you do this! India has this market!". He eventually kicked me out for not listening, forcing me to to borrow money from a friend to pay tuition in my final semester. Needless to say he was complete…

I have a lot of respect for your perseverance, it was the right thing to do. Make your own mistakes, making someone else's is just so... Painful. And it makes you feel weak. Similarly someone once advised me not to do a Masters in Molecular Biology because the market was screaming for Bachelors (back then in the Netherlands a Bachelor meant working in a production lab or something). I didn't listen and this also turn…

"I honestly don't know which way is right. In case something _does_ go wrong, though, I'd rather have only myself to hold it against because I made the wrong decision than also hold it against you and let that make its way into our relationship."

I think this just made its way into my "life rules for dealing with family and close friends."

It's up there with "give money freely, but never lend it," and, "don't hire a friend to perform work for you on a deadline."

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#213

Post by teekert »

smeej wrote: post #212
teekert wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a lot of respect for your perseverance, it was the right thing to do. Make your own mistakes, making someone else's is just so... Painful. And it makes you feel weak. Similarly someone once advised me not to do a Masters in Molecular Biology because the market was screaming for Bachelors (back then in the Netherlands a Bachelor meant working in a production lab or something). I didn't listen and this also turn…

"I honestly don't know which way is right. In case something _does_ go wrong, though, I'd rather have only myself to hold it against because I made the wrong decision than also hold it against you and let that make its way into our relationship." I think this just made its way into my "life rules for dealing with family and close friends." It's up there with "give money freely, but never lend it," and, "don't hire a…

It's for sure something I try to keep in mind raising my children now. It's a form of admitting that you never have 100% of the facts + knowing that making mistakes is very good for learning. You can definitely learn things from how even the youngest of kids solve problems.

This of course does not mean you should let them die screaming "yolo!", there is a balance to be found, but having this mantra keeps the balance a bit more on the "open mind" side of things.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#214

Post by cm2187 »

donatj wrote: post #49

I don’t hear much about it these days, but circa 2004 when I was going into computer science I had multiple teachers and a guidance counselor warn me that all the jobs would be going to India and tell me I should pursue something else. This seemed to be very much the prevailing wisdom of the time. I pursued it anyway as it was my passion. I was one of five students in my program that had been a huge multi-campus prog…

In all fairness, where I work (large european financial institution), all the dev jobs have been moved to India.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#215

Post by vagrantJin »

raducu wrote: post #172
momento wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father was very strongly against my decision to get into web development (2012) and he echoed this sentiment heavily. I distinctly remember him yelling at me as a teenager; "you'll be living under a bridge in 5 years if you do this! India has this market!". He eventually kicked me out for not listening, forcing me to to borrow money from a friend to pay tuition in my final semester. Needless to say he was complete…

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old (faulty chain, impulsive child). I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. Unfortunately there's nothing much you can do, except build your life around it, keep your boundaries…

> I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity.

HN is the last place I would have expected to see these words.

Which is slightly interesting take on a parent - I presume they housed you, fed you, got you educated and relatively safe...I cant possibly imagine you are writing this from a rehab facility or jail. And yet, for denying you a bicycle deems that man "toxic"? And what does a parent taking away a privilege have to do with masculinity? Which one of your human rights were infringed upon exactly?

I'm genuinely interested.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#216

Post by alexgmcm »

hkmurakami wrote: post #39

Similar story post Dotcom crash at my alma mater. There were either 21 or 26 incoming undergrads declared as CS majors. The dean exclaimed that it was great to have them and that they were "the true believers". Fast forward to now, and there's about 250 incoming CS undergrads without much student body expansion.

I studied Physics but I think if I could do it all again CS would make more sense (in my job I do some CS stuff anyway and zero physics..)

At least in Europe, even Engineering fields (let alone sciences and god forbid, the arts/humanities..) have pretty dismal job prospects compared to CS.

It seems like everyone and their grandmother wants to "learn to code" these days and it really doesn't seem like a sustainable situation.

That said, it's quite a hard field to actually learn enough to be a useful, paid professional so at the moment I'd still say it is the best degree choice.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#217

Post by 988747 »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #38
nostrademons wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entered college in 2001 just as the dot-com bubble was bursting. Freshman year graduating seniors were still pretty optimistic. Sophomore year I declared as a physics major, despite having worked at a dot-com and enjoying programming for fun, as a bunch of family friends started floating "Why would you go into software when all the jobs are being outsourced to India anyway?" Junior year I knew that I liked programmin…

My uncle dropped out of Waterloo in the early 70s because everyone figured there weren't enough computers for computer science to be useful. Like Professor Frink said: "I predict that within 10 years, computers will be twice as powerful, ten thousand times larger, and so expensive that only the 5 richest kings of Europe will own them" I entered Waterloo in 2002 and I took "Computer Science for Business" where a confi…

>> all our jobs would be outsourced to India

I guess now, with arrival of Github Copilot the jobs outsourced to India will simply vanish.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#218

Post by robbiejs »

momento wrote: post #124
donatj wrote: post #49

I don’t hear much about it these days, but circa 2004 when I was going into computer science I had multiple teachers and a guidance counselor warn me that all the jobs would be going to India and tell me I should pursue something else. This seemed to be very much the prevailing wisdom of the time. I pursued it anyway as it was my passion. I was one of five students in my program that had been a huge multi-campus prog…

My father was very strongly against my decision to get into web development (2012) and he echoed this sentiment heavily. I distinctly remember him yelling at me as a teenager; "you'll be living under a bridge in 5 years if you do this! India has this market!". He eventually kicked me out for not listening, forcing me to to borrow money from a friend to pay tuition in my final semester. Needless to say he was complete…

Perhaps your father did not want you to make more money than he did. Some fathers have very fragile egos.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#219

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

Semaphor wrote: post #128
manmal wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here (2005), but in Austria. I think Europe still had to catch up to the US‘ pre-2000 level of „digitalisation“ such that the bubble burst didn’t do that much to our industries.

Good point. I guess the language barrier was another issue, with English obviously being more popular than German, so "Indians in India taking our IT jobs" wasn’t really a thing.

Except that Germany and Austria have an obsession to outsource, or more accurately nearshore everything to Poland, Romania, Hungary, Ukraine, Czech Republic, etc. so dev wages there hold no candle to the ones in the US or even UK and the only path to decent pay is going into management.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#220

Post by [deleted] »

teekert wrote: post #200
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When offering PhD studentship positions, I have had several cases of people from developing countries who wanted to come work in my group, but didn't, and the reason (from their own accounts) was that their parents wouldn't let them go get their PhD anywhere not in the US. They ended up at groups in the US with much worse scientific output than mine (it's true that well-known US universities wipe the floor with mine…

This. I also had a M.Sc. student work at my company, a brilliant guy from China, he deserved the best Ph.D. Which in my opinion is with a Professor that made his mark, has a secure position (so he is not still in his publish or perish period), enjoys what he does and cares about his Ph.D. students' development. His parents didn't agree, they wanted him to go to the most prestigious lab he could get into. Probably to…

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