Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 245 posts

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#211

Post by roel_v »

aidenn0 wrote: post #151
darklajid wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm.. I'm certainly no expert, but 'we have to pay more for benefits like health care' should be somewhat qualified. In DE half of the (state based. There's a 'I don't want to be part of the general system' option that works slightly different) health care is payed by your employer, half is deducted from your salary. It's a percentage of your income. Next thing that kind of trips me here is that I'm pretty sure that…

Marginal tax rate for me is around that (including California state tax) and likewise that doesn't include the Social-security and medicare. Also, we have very limited safety net for retirement, so figure another 10% (or so) going to retirement savings. With my 401(k) contributions, my paycheck is almost exactly 1/2 of my gross pay.

http://dbaron.org/views/taxes-2007.html claims that in California, total marginal tax rate including SS but excluding private health insurance is around 40%, depending on the income. So with some room for retirement and health insurance, yes 50% is about the same or less as in most of Western Europe (the 40% quoted for Germany is only income tax, you'd need to add the mandatory part of the health insurance to it, the local taxes and of course the sales tax which is 19 to 21%; I don't think it ever goes above 10% in California). Oh and 'capital taxes', (not even 'capital gains taxes', which you have to pay too, I'm talking tax on things that you own and on which you've already paid tax before).

Yes California is expensive, tax-wise, but it's not as expensive as most places in Europe. Other places in the US are much cheaper.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#212

Post by roel_v »

darklajid wrote: post #114
MrKurtHaeusler wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in Germany, and 70k EUR seems average for someone with experience and/or specialist skills. (Of course less experienced or "motivated" developers will be on a bit less than that). 70k would be low for anyone in a leadership role. Of course half of that gets taxed away, so I wouldn't really compare it to 100k USD.

Can you, without giving away too much information, tell me what kind of market you're talking about (i.e. are you thinking of embedded, financial, whatever)? I'm from Germany as well with (depending on skill) 5-10 years experience and your numbers just don't match mine. Maybe you just confirmed once more that I fail to negotiate, but.. by a large margin.

I guess it depends on where in Germany we're talking. The Cologne and Frankfurt areas pay better than the East, from what I hear. But 70k isn't unusual; I was paid 60k straight out of college in Frankfurt, 10 years ago.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#213

Post by bradfa »

chanux wrote: post #172

I'm on my first real job. I had no idea what to ask for and what I am really worth. I wasn't really desperate for a job but I only asked for something now seems too low (feels way too low after this thread). I screwed up in salary negotiation (Actually I didn't even negotiate.) Anyway what matters right now is I love the job and it's pretty much what I'd be doing even if I was on my own. There are times that economy…

I still work for my first employer after I graduated from college 6 years ago. I took their first salary offer without negotiation. I thought it was a good offer and I didn't know any better. Turns out, I could have asked for 10% more and still been in their range.

In the 6 years I've been with the company, I've gotten a good number of raises. I now make 39% more than I did 6 years ago. Due to the recession, some hard work, and raise freezes for higher earners, I've now caught up to those who came in making more than me that first year out of college.

You can do the same thing I've done (stick it out and hope for raises), or now that you have a good understanding of what you think you're worth, go and ask for that. Why not just ask your boss for more money? They won't fire you for asking, worst they'll do is say no.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#214

Post by Troll_Whisperer »

dasil003 wrote: post #92
Troll_Whisperer wrote: post #42

I make 10,000 RMB per month (about $1550 USD) at a start-up in Beijing. On one hand I feel certain I could earn more in the US, but on the other hand it might be harder to get a job at a start-up as someone entering the field from the arts with a relatively modest tech background.

How much does rent/food/computers cost?

2800/3000ish/too much!

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#215

Post by DougWebb »

a3camero wrote: post #56
DougWebb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We work many more hours and we have to pay more for benefits like health care. Most other medical costs are higher here too; drugs are a lot more expensive in the US than the rest of the world, because the drug companies fold the research and testing costs into our prices, and only include manufacturing and distribution costs in the rest of the world's pricing. Cars might be cheaper here, and gas certainly is, but we…

That is not the case that the large drug companies sell for distribution + manufacturing cost. If that were the case, drugs would be essentially free in the rest of the world and they most certainly are not for brand names. In Canada the government sets the price. Here's a chart that's still relevant that shows prices in US/Canada/Mexico: http://cummings.house.gov/pdf/intl.pdf Some generic drugs cost literally pennie…

Obviously they're making a profit too. My point was that they determine prices for most of the world on a mass-production manufacturing basis, while for the US they also include recovering the research and testing costs. That's why we get charged more. (That, and because most of the drug costs are hidden behind the insurance system which helps them get away with this practice.)

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#216

Post by jasonlotito »

neild wrote: post #118
jasonlotito wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Determining equivalent cost of living is a complex question, While that's true, the calculator presented isn't as bad as you make it out to be. It splits up the calculations across several different indexes. Food, Housing, Utilities, Transportation, Health, and Misc. It's increase is based merely on the average. This is probably fair, considering if you want to maintain the same life style you have in one location,…

You can't maintain the same level of housing no matter where you are. That's what my example comparing my home town (backwoods Connecticut) with San Francisco is about--it simply doesn't make any sense at all to compare a hundred acres in rural farmland with the equivalent housing situation in a major metropolis. Cost doesn't really enter into it. The type of housing you can afford is a quality of life issue as much…

> You can't maintain the same level of housing no matter where you are.

I realize that, and what you said. My point was, the numbers there had housing playing a major role in affecting your cost of living. Simply put, if I wanted the same 4 bedroom, 2500 sqft house between here and San Francisco, it's going to cost me a LOT more. However, if I ignore the housing, the rest of the estimates are still useful, and as a result, you can still find out how much more or less you need to make to maintain what you are used to.

> That's what that calculator does, and it's deceptive and wrong.

If you look at the numbers blindly, sure. But their is value in knowing the comparative values in things besides housing. After all, it's not just giving you one single number.

My argument isn't that the calculator is completely right, only that it's not completely useless as you make it out to be.

Finally, you also talk a lot about other factors. While it's true, it's also pointless. Of course people aren't going to just look at the calculator and base everything off that. However, for many people, it's a helpful indication of what to expect. A 20% increase across the board for all expenses could mean someone moving for a job for a small pay raise might need to plan accordingly.

Basically, knowing how much things cost relative to where you are now is important. Yes, the more money you make, the less it matters, but there are far fewer people in that situation.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#217

Post by [deleted] »

DougWebb wrote: post #215
a3camero wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the case that the large drug companies sell for distribution + manufacturing cost. If that were the case, drugs would be essentially free in the rest of the world and they most certainly are not for brand names. In Canada the government sets the price. Here's a chart that's still relevant that shows prices in US/Canada/Mexico: http://cummings.house.gov/pdf/intl.pdf Some generic drugs cost literally pennie…

Obviously they're making a profit too. My point was that they determine prices for most of the world on a mass-production manufacturing basis, while for the US they also include recovering the research and testing costs. That's why we get charged more. (That, and because most of the drug costs are hidden behind the insurance system which helps them get away with this practice.)

[deleted]

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#218

Post by SatvikBeri »

zmj wrote: post #110
kingofspain wrote: post #70

This has got me thinking. I would literally pay someone to figuratively sit down with me, go through what I've done/can do etc and then based off their experiences tell me what I could be getting. Of course, it won't be too accurate and location makes a big difference but perhaps an enlightened recruiter type with a bit of experience in a couple of parts of the world could give a ballpark figure, say X in SV, Y in NY…

You're making a mistake in thinking that there is an objective value that you can apply to yourself. It's not you.value, it's you.valueTo(other,now).

Sure, but the vast majority of people still tend to underestimate how much they could get. And you can get a pretty darn good estimate from a person's background and skills.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#219

Post by abyssknight »

psykotic wrote: post #100
abyssknight wrote: post #86

Programmer, Developer or Architect? They're very different paradigms. I'd bet your 200k range is mostly Architects. The Developers and Engineers in the middle, with "Programmers" at the bottom.

Those are labels with barely any fixed meaning. I will always call myself a programmer since programming is what I do. Architect as a named position mostly exists in companies that embrace Moses-from-the-mountain software development with a musty smell of IBM from the 1960s. Fortunately there are plenty of ways to make good money as a programmer without working at places like that.

Architects design systems of systems, developers build systems, programmers write code. While it may be true that the former can do the job of all their successors, it is not true in the reverse. I won't disagree that programming is what we do, but every time I see a position for a "Programmer" there is a distinct lack of respect for the trade behind it.

Now, I have to ask, why the down votes? This is supposed to be a place for constructive commentary. This has been happening more and more lately.

Re: Poll: How much do you make as a programmer?

#220

Post by kayoone »

peteretep wrote: post #27
kayoone wrote: post #21

Quite interesting. In Germany or Europe very very few programmers would make more than 100k USD (around 70k EUR) unless he is in some position where he leads a team or oversees bigger projects. Then i see how cheap cars and computer hardware etc is in the US and i really start to wonder where this massive difference comes from. US engineers seem to earn way more and generally pay much less for many things. Apple hard…

Except contractors - good contractor in the UK makes £300-£600 day programming

but do they earn that in a year on average ? i doubt it.
Post reply on HN