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Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#211

Post by losvedir »

IshKebab wrote: post #66
istorical wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 100+ years, but the ACLU would have defended me anyway. That version of the ACLU no longer exists. This precise thing is why it's baffling that people can suggest cancel culture is only something to complain about if you've done / said something wrong. What is considered wrong does not always age well. Sometimes we ourselves are the baddies.

Yeah I think it's interesting to think what people of today will be cancelled for. My best guesses are eating meat, and doing business with China.

Maybe keeping a pet? Probably carbon intensive things like taking an international flight for vacation.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#212

Post by refenestrator »

dale_glass wrote: post #169
calcifer wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But when people start dying that gets a lot harder to justify. Only for those who were unprincipled in the first place. Those who approach civil liberties from a point of subjective right vs wrong are doomed to failure - the moment a case comes up that clashes with their own viewpoints, they will abandon the liberties they claimed to defend. On the other hand, those who approach civil liberties as a matter of princ…

This isn't how most people actually work. Most of us see principles as a means to an end, even if we don't say so, or initially don't admit it. It's kind of a fairy tale of the kind Disney sells you: if you do the right thing, everything works out for the best. We like that idea because simplicity is appealing, but the real world is complicated and conflicts with such nice notions. In Disney movies when you do the ri…

Not sure if you're aware, but way back when the ACLU supported Nazis right to march on pragmatic as well as principled grounds.

If WE are stopping the BAD GUYS from marching on OUR turf, then what precedent does that set for permitting a civil rights march in Selma?

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#213

Post by fallingknife »

klyrs wrote: post #175
asabjorn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure how I am supposed to get your identity from you providing a few published examples. The UNC Chapel Hill case is a bad example as Nikole Hannah-Jones engaged in divisive political activism in her role instead of academic rigor and is the brains behind major indoctrination efforts such as the 1619 project. Someone like her that teach students what to think instead of how should not get tenure, and does no…

Is discussion of Critical Race Theory an exercise of free speech?

Teachers are employees, and freedom of speech has never been recognized in that context. For example, it would be kind of ridiculous if a science teacher was allowed to teach students flat earth theory because of freedom of speech. Outside of the classroom, which was the subject of the comment above, obviously it would be covered by the 1st amendment.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#214

Post by a1369209993 »

_-david-_ wrote: post #174
1986 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why was the NRA so silent about Philando Castile?

Because he was in possession of a controlled substance and a gun which is illegal. Edit: not sure why I am being down voted but here is the statement https://mobile.twitter.com/DLoesch/status/895508311193382912

> and a gun which is illegal.

> not sure why I am being down voted

Probably for stupid reasons, but a legitimate reason for downvoting you would be because that is no such thing as a gun which is illegal[0]; that's the whole point of the second amendment.

0: Except maybe something like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device) if applicable arms limitation treaties make it also illegal for the military to possess one.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#215

Post by tomlockwood »

depaulagu wrote: post #187
tomlockwood wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that certain people fixate on free speech because they have the luxury to be able to. It's like once they've progressed past a certain level of Maslow's hierarchy they forget about the previous levels. First step of the free speech agenda: Breathe.

No, people fixate on free speech because no other right even makes sense if you don't have free expression. It's the foundation for our democratic society.

No, without existence, there can be no democracy or democratic representation. Being allowed to exist is the most fundamental right.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#216

Post by xbar »

wutbrodo wrote: post #30
notwedtm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but then YOU are not doing it the service it deserves by simply slapping it in there and not providing any context. This is the problem with the whole "DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH" retort that lots of political arguments deteriorate into. If YOU have already done said research, and you have an informed opinion from said research, then you should share it directly in the conversation at hand. Not only do you avoid l…

> Not only do you avoid looking like a jerk by trying to end a conversation with "look it up" or something similar What on Earth are you talking about? Your whole comment is in reference to rebuffing a request for more details with "look it up". _Nobody here is doing that_. The original comment mentioned FIRE without describing it; presumably you don't think every mention of an organization must come with an executiv…

I suspect you did not read the article.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#217

Post by bazooka_penguin »

rgbrenner wrote: post #90
nzrf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like they just stay out of 2nd amendment… https://www.aclu.org/blog/civil-liberties/mobilization/aclus... As I support their efforts generally. I find picking and choosing seems counter to the what protecting our civil liberties means in a whole.

Theyve said previously that the reason they mostly stay out of the 2nd amendment is that there's already a well funded organization that has made the 2nd their sole focus. The NRA's budget is larger than the ACLUs.. so it makes sense for them to prioritize other constitutional issues.

Didn't the NRA help form early gun control laws?

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#218

Post by retrac »

insert_coin wrote: post #152
seventytwo wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s lots of “speech” that’s already illegal in the US. Please, define where the actual line should be.

What speech is illegal? What is the list of words not allowed by law to be spoken?

There are laws regulating speech in some way or form regarding: Directly inciting violence. Threats. Various advertising and commerce standards. Specific details on how to carry out crimes. Publishing or modifying copyrighted works without permission. Photographing your ballot. Obscenity. Child pornography. Non-consensual pornography of adults. Laws enabling time and place restrictions with protests. Libel. Trade secrets. Invasion of privacy. Sedition. Various laws restricting things tending to fraud. Various national security laws. Regulations on the content of over-the-air broadcasters. Regulation and restriction of political advertising. Laws against foreign propaganda.

And probably some other things. A holistic theory for what should or shouldn't be covered has always escaped me.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#219

Post by whymauri »

Avshalom wrote: post #49
tpmx wrote: post #22

I like this idea: https://twitter.com/kittypurrzog/status/1401610476237197312 The ACLU should split into two groups: ACLU Sr, which fights for free speech rights, and ACLU Jr, which fights against them (Yes, I saw this when PG retweeted it.)

You know free speech isn't the only civil liberty right?

Yeah, this honestly seems like a nothingburger to me. They have institutional priorities right now for other civil liberties, and once they feel satisfied with progress there they'll probably re-invest resourced into their free speech cases to avoid churn or even grow that area.

It's short term vs long term thinking and clearly they know way more about the Constitution and law than I do to identify major threats to liberty. It's pretty normal for both lay people and professionals to disagree with that strategy, as there are often disagreements in the law. And while I think having this discussion is important, framing it as an existential crisis for the organization is a bit fatalistic.

It's my opinion, and people are welcome to disagree (that's OK), that much of the angst directed towards the ACLU in this thread is more appropriate and effective if directed at the government bodies suppressing free speech, instead.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#220

Post by michaelt »

depaulagu wrote: post #187
tomlockwood wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that certain people fixate on free speech because they have the luxury to be able to. It's like once they've progressed past a certain level of Maslow's hierarchy they forget about the previous levels. First step of the free speech agenda: Breathe.

No, people fixate on free speech because no other right even makes sense if you don't have free expression. It's the foundation for our democratic society.

Eh, countries like Germany seem to have managed OK with banning nazi symbols - it hasn't proven to be a slippery slope leading to a ban on criticising the government, or anything like that.
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