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Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

macwright.com

211–220 of 309 posts

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#211

One thing I've seen happen again and again in a lot of technologies is a "framework gravity". A lot of people see this as engineers just wanting to work on "hype" technology but I think what is actually happening is a reflection of global engineering time. React is great for SPAs. Most large companies are working on honest-to-god SPAs. By extension most engineers are working on SPAs. So most tooling is created for SP…

Same argument can be applied to kubernetes too

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#212

> unloved, unpopular, uncool things like Django, Rails, Laravel Oh they're loved all right, it's just that they're (all three) very mature, packed with features, easy to pick up and people who work with them don't have a reason to sit around and discuss the tools. I work for a smaller Rails shop and the atmosphere is just so nice there. We work on small (think $20k) projects for different niche customers, we absolute…

Those frameworks just aren’t alternatives to React/SPA in my opinion. I’ve worked on more than one system that had one of those frameworks on the server and React or some other frontend framework on the client.

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#213

One thing I've seen happen again and again in a lot of technologies is a "framework gravity". A lot of people see this as engineers just wanting to work on "hype" technology but I think what is actually happening is a reflection of global engineering time. React is great for SPAs. Most large companies are working on honest-to-god SPAs. By extension most engineers are working on SPAs. So most tooling is created for SP…

In my opinion, it's that 'most not widely experienced but SPA focussed developers read about SPAs'. I think the issue is your search filters or other filters that have created a knowledge focus bubble in your life.

The hadoop thing is so unusual, really strange. I'm fairly certain, to very certain, that Sql is the industry standard while hadoop is a small corner of the mindshare.

Perhaps it's time to widen your sources, and e.g. cycle through different browsers to reduce search profiling.

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#214
post #64

I agree with a lot of these points, but differ slightly in two regards: 1. In my experience React DOES lure people into the "pit of success" in at least one important aspect -- modular and re-usable front-end code. React is certainly not the only way to get this, but it does help force you into some good patterns. 2. The "sweet spot" for React is pretty large. If your site is truly static (e.g. a blog, a product land…

How? It's the most painful, difficult, slow, frustrating, confusing programming experience I've ever had in my 25 years. It's made me want to leave the industry completely and I honestly think I will after this project. It has single handedly slaughtered and destroyed my quarter century love affair with programming. It's a wildly inflexible architecture that aggressively forces their users to conform to an orthodoxy…

I have a really hard time relating to the conclusion of this. In a big React codebase there are certainly a lot of indirection and "artificial" barriers. The React ecosystem is indeed turbocharged and confusing, atleast if you are trying to follow the latest trends.

However, there is atleast a method to the madness. Compared to the bowls of jQuery spaghetti that was used to bring SSR apps to life back in the days, the situation is infinitely more ordered. To say nothing of the absolute insanity that was pre-framework-driven SPAs.

Redux is a good example of this. It requires a load of boilerplate and seemingly contrived ways of reacting to interactions. What most people don't understand is that this is the primary feature of it. It is a rigid flow of data that enforces you to go through the same steps each time. As such, you can get into a Redux powered app and understand it relatively quickly.

If I may ask, what was your stack of choice before being forced to work with React?

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most large companies are working on honest-to-god SPAs. Most devs don't work at large companies, at least not tech oriented large companies. I'm almost certain most projects don't come out from such companies either, statistically. In fact, most projects are not SPA, nor using any kind of AI, Big Data, or another buzzword. So I don't think that's it. I think that large companies are just the loudest, also creating/…

> Most devs don't work at large companies. that would be very surprising. Companies like IBM, Microsoft, ATOS, CapGemini ... employ literally hundreds of thousands of devs each

It's not as if all of them are working on a SPA or the backend of a SPA.

On the other side, the long tail of devs working in medium and small companies are probably working on both a frontend and a backend. This is especially true when there are one or two developers in all the company, when the company business is selling some service or physical product and software is a cost and not the source of income. And a medium company in the USA is a large one in many countries, a small one a medium one.

So the sum of devs in the long tail can be much larger than the sum of the devs in the top companies.

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#216

> unloved, unpopular, uncool things like Django, Rails, Laravel Oh they're loved all right, it's just that they're (all three) very mature, packed with features, easy to pick up and people who work with them don't have a reason to sit around and discuss the tools. I work for a smaller Rails shop and the atmosphere is just so nice there. We work on small (think $20k) projects for different niche customers, we absolute…

Good you have found your niche, and it's great that you haven't overextended yourself when it comes to delivering value to customers. I would say though that your work is a subset of web dev, and while totally valid in that area, I don't think it applies as concretely to other domains, particularly those with larger audiences, or those with needs for greater reactivity.

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#217
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Server-side Node.js still exists and, if you like, can be quite similar to good old PHP. A "Hello World" app in Express.js is pretty barebones and easy to get started with, and there are probably lots of comparable alternatives. I've always found Express.js to have a big community with lots of guides and info, although I admittedly haven't had the experience of coming to it as a newcomer to programming or the web.

This is something I'll never understand: Isn't the only selling point of JS that it runs on every web browser? Why would anyone want to use it (or, in 2021, PHP) on the server side, where you can use any language you want?

Hah, I've been saying the same thing for years. It bothered me even more so because I was a Perl programmer and everyone kept saying how messy Perl code is. But they want JS on the backend?!

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#218
post #139
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but it seems like WinForms is basically a dead end at this point, not much maintenance work is put into it and you have to jump through some serious hoops to make basic stuff like DPI scaling work even last I checked. Completely agree though, the 3rd party component story is very good on .NET, but the applications you're producing don't exactly have a modern look and feel unless you're investing serious…

Coming off of an extremely disappointing Build - I don’t think any news even made it to HN this year, and not a peep about desktop - I agree that the future is unclear. WinUI is the future, but they’ve admitted it will be years before it reaches the maturity of UWP, which is embarrassingly bad even 5 years on. WPF, in my opinion, is the best choice for “native” windows apps. The actual best choice is Electron, as mos…

I was too busy this week to watch any of the Build stuff, but it is surprising how it's basically just been crickets. I can't remember a year with less buzz about anything that Microsoft has queued up...

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#219

One thing I've seen happen again and again in a lot of technologies is a "framework gravity". A lot of people see this as engineers just wanting to work on "hype" technology but I think what is actually happening is a reflection of global engineering time. React is great for SPAs. Most large companies are working on honest-to-god SPAs. By extension most engineers are working on SPAs. So most tooling is created for SP…

This gravity is probably the fuel of society, it's hard to avoid its negative side effects, it's a natural positive feedback loop.

Just like finding beer money by making a youtube channel on trendy topic.. the short term effort/reward is higher than doing quality stuff (or even finding a better job, which can be hell) and this web being the trend, everybody will be nice to you if you want to make a youtube channel..

Re: Second-guessing the modern web (2020)

#220

One thing I've seen happen again and again in a lot of technologies is a "framework gravity". A lot of people see this as engineers just wanting to work on "hype" technology but I think what is actually happening is a reflection of global engineering time. React is great for SPAs. Most large companies are working on honest-to-god SPAs. By extension most engineers are working on SPAs. So most tooling is created for SP…

I agree with your logic but not the premise; wrt React and SPAs in particular, thankfully NextJS has emerged as a robust React-based framework encompassing every kind of rendering mode (SSR, SSG, ISR, CSR/SPA, hybrid) and architecture.
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