Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism • Hacker News Board

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#211

Post by ALittleLight » Fri, May 28, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #105

xvector wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and being powerless to stop it. You are only powerless so long as you decide to stay within the comfortable confines of the law. The crowd of Hacker News alone certainly has enough ability to cause serious problems for Citizen, whether through activism within their own megacorporations or independent ability.

You don't even have to break the law. Hacker News and the software engineering industry has a decent influence in the world, as we can't (yet) be automated away and it takes years to become proficient. If we as an industry collectively agree that X is bad and refuse to work on it, X will be significantly disrupted, as their only option might to be offering more money (to get someone to defect and renege on the promis…

That's true, but you'd need an implausibly high percentage of developers to agree to the boycott for it to work. Since that conformity is unlikely it's even harder to attain because every individual thinks "Even I forgo this lucrative job it'll still be done by someone else and I'll just have less money."

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#212

Post by mr_toad » Fri, May 28, 2021, 2:22 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #44

In case people are missing the broader point of the article, beyond the horrifying incident at the beginning: "The whole idea behind Protect is that you could convince people to pay for the product once you’ve gotten them to the highest point of anxiety you can possibly get them to," one former employee said, referring to Citizen's subscription service. "Citizen can’t make money unless it makes its users believe ther…

> they just want to push as many notifications to create that feeling of vulnerability

Sounds like they adopted the business model of the AV industry.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#213

Post by ALittleLight » Fri, May 28, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

vgel wrote: post #111

BigW1lly wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You live in Seattle, there's your main problem. The local government keeps the police department hogtied, cops can't do much outside of their narrow rules of engagement. On top of that, the city's residents don't seem too enthusiastic about the 2nd Amendment either. So who or what is going to protect the flock?? Nothing it seems.

SPD is infamously brutal [1]. They just don't give a f** about actually helping people, just destroying homeless encampments and covering their badges at protests. Source: Lived here for 5 years and have never seen an SPD officer do anything helpful or solve any crime, but have seen them be brutal at multiple protests. My wife literally saw someone be set on fire at a local park, but I never saw a cop there until the…

What are the police supposed to do in this situation? If you let them protest unconstrained they will vandalize and loot stores, not to mention block traffic. If you tell them to disperse, they won't. If you try to politely move them they will resist. Seems like tear gas and moderate physical force is completely warranted.

I agree with you that the police are useless in terms of stopping or punishing most crime though.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#214

Post by kleer001 » Fri, May 28, 2021, 2:48 AM UTC

evo_9 wrote: post #102

kleer001 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days? Well, the last 40 years... CNN started in 1980.

'Extra Extra Read All About it!' from anon newspaper kid standing on the street-corner ~100+ years ago (probably older).

Not really the same thing. That's just once a day.

If we wanna go deep we can talk about the evolutionary origins of gossip. I'm sure being a social animal with complex signs and individual identities demands communication about one's neighbours and peers.

What I mean is a constantly televised high bandwidth audio visual stream. That's only 40 years old.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#215

Post by filoleg » Fri, May 28, 2021, 3:03 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #167

sbagel wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users getting so offended by this comment are hilarious. He didn't create this system, if you were in a similar position tasked to get attention for a client or business you could take the high road of not using proven social media tactics and fail miserably. The sanctimonious take that he's a 'manipulative asshole' for playing the system is laughable. Don't hate the player hate the game.

I would honestly rather my business fail than participate in that sort of manipulation. "Unethical" doesn't even begin to describe it. The game is supported by the players willing to play. If you play, you're culpable.

>I would honestly rather my business fail than participate in that sort of manipulation. "Unethical" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Ethics become a bit more complex when you are employing people. Would you rather your business fail, so that all the people working for you become unemployed overnight, despite a lot of them having their livelihoods depend on that?

To be clear, I don't think that "i have people working for me, whose livelihoods depend on my business surviving" is a great excuse for all kinds of immoral behavior, but it definitely adds to the nuance. And given what specific scenario we are dealing with here, I don't think it is as clear-cut as you try to make it seem.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#216

Post by heavyset_go » Fri, May 28, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

sodality2 wrote: post #191

TeMPOraL wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, for the first couple of paragraphs, I was sure they're summarizing some movie. Because I've already seen this exact story at least twice, played out to disastrous consequences. One take was in "The Circle". Still not sure why people hate that movie, it's pretty much a documentary on Google and Facebook, and about the only fictional element in it are the advanced video cameras. That, and this vigilante crime tra…

That movie was so good. I never thought someone would watch it and think, "Holy shit I have to make it" though.

> I never thought someone would watch it and think, "Holy shit I have to make it" though.

See also: intrusive mass spying using cell phones in the Dark Knight

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#217

Post by aseipp » Fri, May 28, 2021, 3:22 AM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #199

asimpletune wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I think this is the biggest thing stopping them from mass adoption. Nextdoor knows they have a problem I think they’re doing their best to fix it. It’s really just the early adopters are of a particular persuasion and it gives exactly the idea that you’re describing. So this is obviously problematic for them because they are actually hope to basically be a better craigslist one day.

I think they do it on purpose. The only way to push alerts to users’ apps is with a “safety alert”. The only way you can post to your whole city is in the crime and safety category. The amplification of fear is built-in.

Also, the idea NextDoor has a desire to "reform" their userbase or target market or whatever is something I simply don't believe unless definitively proven otherwise, if it's even possible. The entire premise of the OP is an app that realized it could literally sell fear to people and profit! Why should anyone believe NextDoor is different, especially when the prevailing meme is that it's mostly the same already? The second the numbers come back and say "Selling fear will make the most money in the long run", they'll absolutely go in on it whole-heartedly, if they haven't already.

It's strange, but I suspect that all the various business models that revolve around "Turn every single person in society into a policeman in a panopticon" might just be fundamentally bad, and not capable of reform or realignment.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#218

Post by stevenicr » Fri, May 28, 2021, 3:50 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #56

wolverine876 wrote: post #44

In case people are missing the broader point of the article, beyond the horrifying incident at the beginning: "The whole idea behind Protect is that you could convince people to pay for the product once you’ve gotten them to the highest point of anxiety you can possibly get them to," one former employee said, referring to Citizen's subscription service. "Citizen can’t make money unless it makes its users believe ther…

I do notice, at least in my city, that there seem to be a lot more reports of violent crime in my area on citizen than I would expect from looking at the city's official crime map data. that said, I don't trust the city enough to conclude that the inaccuracy is mostly on citizen's side.

I have learned that the crime maps I've seen mostly in my city are nothing compared to what is really going on.

For a while some years back one of the newspapers had a tool that showed police calls (there are many more calls than actual prosecuted crimes) - now that was much more realistic as to what's really going on - but it's still not the complete picture. (I don't think that tool is available any longer)

Once the citizens run into enough situations where calling the cops results in zero things happening - many decide to stop calling the cops.. yet the crimes are continuing, so less are being reported... and often times the reported crimes that show up on main map are lesser charges than what the witnesses felt or whatever.

Anyhow I figure it's good for property values and tourism and all that.

I have seen several situations in which cops did not make reports, would not further investigate things )even some some physical evidence in front of us and eye witnesses providing more details)

I have witnessed cops on multiple occasions try to talk stores out of pressing charges for 'petty' crimes..

Hey they have good reason sometimes I know - but this must be happening many times every day - so crime maps in general I take with a grain of salt knowing there are more that are not being shown for sure.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#219

Post by OldGoodNewBad » Fri, May 28, 2021, 4:39 AM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #100

OldGoodNewBad wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t complain about vigilantism. Worry about a crooked justice system. Vigilantism is coming, there is no stopping it. Terrify yourself, or agitate for the proper punishment of criminals.

This is a ridiculous defeatist attitude. What is the point of living in a hellscape like the one you seem to desire (celebrating vigilantism or desiring punishment)? A civilization that focuses on punishing criminals is just a sad place to be in. Crime falls when you work to prevent it and rehabilitate, not when you punish it after the fact. Look at all the countries that have learnt that lesson, that do not punish b…

I’m not celebrating it. It is what it is, vigilantism is coming because we have activist prosecutors who won’t punish criminals. Just roll with it, enjoy the new normal.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#220

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 28, 2021, 4:40 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #198

TeMPOraL wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just US. It's the whole western world, everywhere where modern market economy took hold. Look beyond the obvious cases, and you'll see it. For instance: - I've already mentioned parents upthread. You can sell them any kind of crap if you even hint at some obscure danger to health or life of a newborn. Half of the market of products for parents/small children is based on that. The other half runs on a combina…

"Fear of cancer and cardiovascular diseases" That one is well justifued, most of us die from something like that

The best lies are rooted in truth. Most of us will die from one of those, but it doesn't mean buying into fitness/healthy food mania has any meaningful chance of delaying it, or that eating normal food carries meaningfully increased risk.

The lie is often just conveniently forgetting to account for base rate when evaluating research papers about correlation between food/behavior and aforementioned disease classes.