Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 260 posts

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#211

Post by randomopining »

gher-shyu3i wrote: post #151
randomopining wrote: post #122

Countries should get taxes back from a corporation at a ratio equivalent to their contributions of a corporations success/profits. US has a good legal system, fairly educated population, market, etc. Most of these corps would not have made it in a country like Russia, or they would've been taken over in China etc. They need to pay their fair share back into the system that allowed them to thrive.

They wouldn't have made it if the US had high tax rates like Europe either. You can't have your cake and eat it as well.

There is an optimal Corp tax rate and you can have a data-driven discussion about it. It’s most likely higher than 20%. Def lower than 50%.

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#212

Post by missedthecue »

permo-w wrote: post #185
missedthecue wrote: post #158

This feels like American politicians trying to force countries like Ireland must pay for US fiscal mismanagement

or is it the American politicians trying to stop countries like Ireland hindering other countries' public services for their own benefit?

That's a lot of words to say competition. Competition is good.

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#213

Post by defterGoose »

randomopining wrote: post #119
anm89 wrote: post #113

The fact that everyone views it as normal for the US to endorse global tax laws is pretty frightening

The fact that nations can syphon off tax dollars from companies that create nothing in their lands is pretty frightening. Rentier effect x 100.

But that's quite literally not what's happening. The problem is companies that do a significant portion of their business in one country using legal loopholes to claim that those operations actually occurred in other jurisdictions where they would have virtually zero tax liability.

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#214

Post by xyzzyz »

robocat wrote: post #194
rayiner wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most economists think corporate taxes are a bad idea: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/19/157047211/six-... > Tuesday's show presented the common-sense, no-nonsense Planet Money economic plan — backed by economists of all stripes, but probably toxic to any candidate that might endorse it. > Three: Eliminate the corporate income tax. Completely. If companies reinvest the money into their businesses, that's g…

Also the npr show has: “4. Eliminate all income and payroll taxes. All of them. For everyone. Instead, impose a consumption tax.” That implies a GST/VAT/sales tax rate of ~35% in my country, changing from progressive to regressive tax. Enforcing it would require both the abolition of cash, and to somehow police the barter economy. https://www.interest.co.nz/news/99949/budget-2019-summary-al... Edit: 35%. Currently GS…

You can make VAT progressive again, e.g. by issuing flat or income-based refunds. Also, I don't see how enforcing VAT requires abolishion of cash, considering that most of Europe has 20%+ VAT rates on top of large income tax, and cash is, if anything, more popular in most European countries than it is in the US.

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#215

Post by JamesBarney »

permo-w wrote: post #184
rayiner wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most economists think corporate taxes are a bad idea: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/19/157047211/six-... > Tuesday's show presented the common-sense, no-nonsense Planet Money economic plan — backed by economists of all stripes, but probably toxic to any candidate that might endorse it. > Three: Eliminate the corporate income tax. Completely. If companies reinvest the money into their businesses, that's g…

Most economists think infinite growth in a finite world is a good idea. Companies reinvesting in themselves and growing bigger is not inherently a good thing. Large corporations, in my opinion, are already causing the breakdown of local societies. Deals are done over large areas, less and less people are in control of their own fates. More and more externalities are caused as business leaders are more detached from t…

> Most economists think infinite growth in a finite world is a good idea.

Most economists thing growth and raising people's incomes is a good idea.

Capitalism seems like a pretty good deal. Are there any other governments or societies you would think it would benefit the U.S. to switch to?

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#216

Post by xyzzyz »

briffle wrote: post #127
codeecan wrote: post #37

If they would just close the loop holes that allow things like having Apple, setup a subsidiary that licenses its own stuff back to itself so it can move profits around the world ... you'd solve this problem. Make a rule, if you own >50% of a company, you can't buy trademarks, patents, whatever from yourself.

They don't even have to close the loophole. Just tell the US Apple Corporation (as an example) they can't proceed in their current court cases, as they are not the 'owner' of the IP, they are merely a licensee. Let them fight it in the court systems of the country where the IP is actually in. Right now, these companies get all the tax/financial protection of another country, but all the legal protection of the US. Im…

> Just tell the US Apple Corporation (as an example) they can't proceed in their current court cases, as they are not the 'owner' of the IP, they are merely a licensee. Let them fight it in the court systems of the country where the IP is actually in.

That's just absurd. If you want something to happen in jurisdiction X, you sue in jurisdiction X, not some other place where you might be a citizen or legal entity. Apple can try to sue in Ireland or Netherlands or wherever, but if they are suing a US company for some breach or whatever that happens in US, the Irish or Dutch court will just dismiss the lawsuit for the lack of jurisdiction, as it could not possibly enforce its judgement in the US.

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#217

Post by permo-w »

missedthecue wrote: post #212
permo-w wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or is it the American politicians trying to stop countries like Ireland hindering other countries' public services for their own benefit?

That's a lot of words to say competition. Competition is good.

that's a very naive attitude. the financial regulators were competing before the 2008 crash. what were they competing for? who could give the most lenient ratings.

what are nations competing for? who can afford to take the least tax revenue

who can afford to take the least tax revenue? already rich countries, or countries that don't give a shit about distributing wealth equally

who continues to get richer? I'll let you answer that one

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#218

Post by tonyedgecombe »

permo-w wrote: post #195
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporation tax. They should just dump it and tax dividends and capitals gains like any other income. It's easy to shift corporation tax but much harder to shift an individuals income.

This sounds like a good idea for the current, somewhat dystopian world we're living in, but have you ever thought about whether huge corporations are even a net positive in the first place? I think that even if taxing corporations doesn't make sense in terms of tax revenue, it makes sense in terms of stopping companies from growing too large Imo corp tax should be nil until you get to about 1m profit, and then brutal…

You have the opposite of that at the moment. Big companies can shift their profits around the world to avoid corporation tax but small ones have no choice but to pay it.

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#219

Post by nodamage »

briffle wrote: post #127
codeecan wrote: post #37

If they would just close the loop holes that allow things like having Apple, setup a subsidiary that licenses its own stuff back to itself so it can move profits around the world ... you'd solve this problem. Make a rule, if you own >50% of a company, you can't buy trademarks, patents, whatever from yourself.

They don't even have to close the loophole. Just tell the US Apple Corporation (as an example) they can't proceed in their current court cases, as they are not the 'owner' of the IP, they are merely a licensee. Let them fight it in the court systems of the country where the IP is actually in. Right now, these companies get all the tax/financial protection of another country, but all the legal protection of the US. Im…

This is a common misconception but actually Apple Inc. (the US corporation) is the sole owner of the legal rights to Apple's intellectual property. The economic rights are split between Apple Inc. (for sales occurring in the Americas) and Apple's Irish subsidiaries (for sales occurring outside the Americas) but the IP itself remains in the United States.

Source: Apple's Congressional hearing from a few years ago

Re: U.S. Backs 15% Global Minimum Tax to Curb Profit Shifting Overseas

#220

Post by candiodari »

mardifoufs wrote: post #207
s_dev wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My understanding is that the current process in vogue for the mega cap companies is the "double irish dutch sandwich" You're understanding is outdated this mechanism is finished as of 2018. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement However this article is a little biased -- it's main contributor is a user called "Britishfinance" -- who appears to be a London based corporate shill to take the heat off th…

That's literally a reddit conspiracy theory propped up on r/Ireland. Everything seems to indicate the editor you mentioned is very well informed & doesn't have any COI a part from vague allegations. Like what do people think, some guy working in the City spent tons of time making extremely well sourced and well constructed articles just to... Divert some sort of "heat" from the entire London financial sector... On Wi…

The point that there is no shortage of tax havens in the EU itself, including leading EU nations, is true.

Luxembourg, City of London, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Netherlands, Belgium, the Vatican, Switzerland (sort of), Malta, all for slightly different reasons. I've even read articles from these nations where they point out that the only way they'll ever distinguish themselves is with tax law. Or rather: that they'd be broke if they weren't tax havens.

And then we're remaining silent about "royal" tax havens that are individual companies which get preferential tax treatment from parliaments (e.g. Shell) and, uh, I guess "presidential" Total. These deals, for individual companies, are far more atrocious (and forced on tax departments) than any tax haven you'll find. They are directly enriching favored individuals in a particular country, and get tax advantaged for it.

And to add a more "creative" situation to terminate, Cyprus is a double tax haven (both the Greek and Turkish parts of the Island are tax havens, for different reasons, interesting for different types of individuals and/or companies, but the fact that money can cross the line, even if people cannot, offers interesting opportunities as well). Neither side of the Island will ever have anything to offer the world other than some small tourism industry, so ... for them as well being a tax haven is the only option (other than, I guess, war).

So what do you do about the problem that many of these countries have no real options other than being tax havens?

Post reply on HN