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Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

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Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#211

Post by solidasparagus »

thisCtx wrote: post #139
solidasparagus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're coming from a position that email is good and it's worth configuring it to work well. But I don't particularly like email. I have zero interest in setting up aliases or filters when the problem simply doesn't exist when I use a better tool.

So your messenger app read your mind? Pretty sure you create a whitelist on that too, yes? Of phone numbers, usernames, or …email addresses… depending on what the app uses, that you wish to hear from? Check out Spike for IOS. I’m not saying you have to USE it, but that it’s a UX problem, not an “email” problem.

> So your messenger app read your mind?

No it just read my pre-existing social network graph. And then very accurately predicts who I might want to add to that graph. But practically speaking it comes out to the same thing - I have never had to create a messaging whitelist.

While email and email tooling is completely ignorant of my multiple social network graphs that are stored in various places on the Internet.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#212

Post by solidasparagus »

jjav wrote: post #205
solidasparagus wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can interact with anybody with an e-mail address Why is that a good thing? My email is full of spam both literal and mundane (email notification from stuff I only occasionally care about like CI or products). My Messenger account has zero noise because I can't be contacted by companies - only friends I've chosen to let in.

> > I can interact with anybody with an e-mail address > Why is that a good thing? Because it is useful to have a communication mechanism which is universal. It is a standard and not owned or controlled (censored) by anyone. Sure there a dozens, possibly hundreds, of fragmented chat protocols that can't talk to anything other than their own proprietary clients. But only email is universally available. > only friends…

> Because it is useful to have a communication mechanism which is universal. It is a standard and not owned or controlled (censored) by anyone. Sure there a dozens, possibly hundreds, of fragmented chat protocols that can't talk to anything other than their own proprietary clients. But only email is universally available.

I have never found that to actually be useful in practice. Non-universal protocols with proprietary clients have worked well for me - they have been convenient, well-engineered, well-designed, and well-populated by the people I want to talk to.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#213

Post by opan »

daveslash wrote: post #7
paxys wrote: post #3

I'm on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. I haven't used email outside of work for many years now, and don't miss it one bit. And even at work most communication now happens on Slack. The digital world has evolved since 1997, and email simply hasn't kept up. I skimmed a couple articles on the blog and my biggest problem with it is that the author is making a social rather than technological argument (which are a…

I'll give you an up-vote because I think a variety of different viewpoints is important, but I'm very much in the e-mail camp. My biggest reason is simply: it's the only ubiquitous, decentralized, open protocol that I can think of. I can run my own server if I want, an I can interact with anybody with an e-mail address . Sure, there was XMPP for IM, but that doesn't have wide adoption; same with other protocols.

XMPP is having a resurgence with OMEMO being added to clients and some new clients (Dino) being made. However, I'm not sure if it will ever be the popular thing even among the free software options.

We have Matrix now, and although most clients are lacking and it can be laggy, in 5 years it will probably be pretty good. I'm especially excited about their P2P work which sounds like it'll allow account migrations, offline messages to nearby people via bluetooth or LAN, etc.

I switched from primarily using a matrix.org account to using one on a smaller server after the big matrix.org hack a few years back. However, my main server is now incredibly bad. I get messages out of order, it goes offline a lot, etc. I don't want to lose my contact list and history again, so I'm kind of holding out for the option to change homeservers/have multiple/have none. It's also annoying how incredibly few Matrix clients support multiple accounts. I know of Quaternion and Neochat, but that's about it. Every XMPP client I've ever used supports multiple accounts. Dino did from version 0.1.

I still use XMPP and IRC at the same time, but I have most IRL contacts only on Matrix. I think it'd be hard to get them all on XMPP as well, so I'm just enduring.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#214

Post by aulin »

My biggest gripe with email today is that it's become normal, at least in my current line of work, to leave emails unreplied. You write detailed and thoughtful messages, with direct questions and point of discussions, and you get an ack on IM or passing by the corridors

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#215

Post by zelphirkalt »

bccdee wrote: post #142
paxys wrote: post #3

I'm on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. I haven't used email outside of work for many years now, and don't miss it one bit. And even at work most communication now happens on Slack. The digital world has evolved since 1997, and email simply hasn't kept up. I skimmed a couple articles on the blog and my biggest problem with it is that the author is making a social rather than technological argument (which are a…

Yeah, this person's position is totally baffling to me. > group instant messaging is, largely, distracting and of little value (more on this later) and can best be dealt with in weekly ‘batches’, if it’s required at all. I mean, I dunno about this guy, but I like interacting with my friends. I'll leave a group chat open all day on my other monitor. It's like a break room where you can chat with whoever's around, or a…

It surely is nice to be able to chat with friends during working hours. However, it seems, that this is a big source of distraction, which is unwanted in an efficient working environment. Unless of course your friends are working on the same project or you are free to discuss work details with friends outside of the project or employer. Many people are not free to do so. Many people have come to realize, that they focus best, when not distracting themselves with friends and family business while at work.

While many people shift effortlessly between async anc sync communication, many people also have problems with that. When you do not respond in time, they get impatient. Some people are seemingly not able to do this shifting as effortlessly.

Just a few points to consider, before getting to any conclusions.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#216

Post by MattJ100 »

opan wrote: post #213
daveslash wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you an up-vote because I think a variety of different viewpoints is important, but I'm very much in the e-mail camp. My biggest reason is simply: it's the only ubiquitous, decentralized, open protocol that I can think of. I can run my own server if I want, an I can interact with anybody with an e-mail address . Sure, there was XMPP for IM, but that doesn't have wide adoption; same with other protocols.

XMPP is having a resurgence with OMEMO being added to clients and some new clients (Dino) being made. However, I'm not sure if it will ever be the popular thing even among the free software options. We have Matrix now, and although most clients are lacking and it can be laggy, in 5 years it will probably be pretty good. I'm especially excited about their P2P work which sounds like it'll allow account migrations, offl…

> However, I'm not sure if it will ever be the popular thing even among the free software options.

I'm one of the many people actively working on XMPP projects. Is there something in particular that makes you think this?

People often talk about XMPP in the past tense on HN. It's understandable, XMPP had a peak of popularity with the adoption of Google Talk, but Google being Google and shutting that down did not end XMPP. It continues to be active and growing.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#217

Post by BatteryMountain »

paxys wrote: post #3

I'm on the exact opposite end of the spectrum. I haven't used email outside of work for many years now, and don't miss it one bit. And even at work most communication now happens on Slack. The digital world has evolved since 1997, and email simply hasn't kept up. I skimmed a couple articles on the blog and my biggest problem with it is that the author is making a social rather than technological argument (which are a…

But every single business out there uses email to interact with me as a consumer:

The Banks

Medical Aid

Insurance/Vehicle Insurnace

Hosting Companies

Mobile service (voice + 4G)

Crypto Exchanges

All of Google/Microsoft/AWS hangs off email accounts.

Local Government/municipalities.

Entertainment: steam, netflix, online-shops, spotify

Android/iOS stores

The list is endless. I have no idea how people can claim they can get away from email.. The only scenario where I can think of it working for me is if I give everything up and go live in the mountains.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#218

Post by benhurmarcel »

mjgs wrote: post #126
daveslash wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you an up-vote because I think a variety of different viewpoints is important, but I'm very much in the e-mail camp. My biggest reason is simply: it's the only ubiquitous, decentralized, open protocol that I can think of. I can run my own server if I want, an I can interact with anybody with an e-mail address . Sure, there was XMPP for IM, but that doesn't have wide adoption; same with other protocols.

Your points are even more valid when you start to move to different counties. You quickly realise that people in other countries often don’t use the apps you are using, in fact you most likely won’t have heard of the apps they are using. But “everyone is using X” they will tell you, but you’ll have no way to know for sure. Are you really going to install every piece of software people say to install? At least with em…

When you move to a new country that has a dominant messaging app, you can't avoid installing it without making your life a lot more difficult. And moving already makes your life difficult enough.

Re: Just Use Email – How to Use Email for Everything

#219

Post by jasonkester »

If Instant Messaging were a Thing, I'd be happy to use it. But it's not.

IM is twelve things. And they're a different 12 things at different times. And you need to have clients for all of them installed and check all 12 of those clients regularly for messages.

Email, on the other hand, really is a Thing. I can check my mail and be done.

Fix that for IM and I'm there. Or rather, fix that again for IM and convince all the major players not to drop support for the common protocol again and you'll get me back.

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