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Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

dfpi.ca.gov

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Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#211

Post by koolba »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #178
srndsnd wrote: post #6

I'm confused as to why this headline has to be so close to clickbait. I'm not even one to stand up for people like Lambda, I think a lot of bootcamps are shady at best, and actively deceptive at worst (Trilogy). It is definitely important to note that that these loans can be discharged in bankruptcy. But as far as I know, isn't this less stringent than typical student loans, which can't be discharged in bankruptcy? I…

"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy." To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery. In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.

The argument for it is that without it a graduate with a large balance could default on their loan immediately after graduation. The classic example being a surgeon getting hundreds of thousands in loans for medical school, and then skipping out on paying them back when they begin making bank as a doctor.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#212

Post by dragonwriter »

dragonwriter wrote: post #170
fastball wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but pretty sure that does not, in fact, qualify as fraud.

I think it probably is fraud, even legally, but only because “qualified education loans” subject to rules against discharge in bankruptcy are also eligible for tax deductions on interest, so while falsely claiming the status was intended as a dissuasion against recourse to bankruptcy for past customers (and not fraud, though clearly unethical, when that’s all the claim serves as), it also was a material misrepresenta…

Actually, since the loan is structured as an all-principal, no-interest $30,000 loan, deductibility of interest isn’t an issue, so it wouldn’t be classic fraud.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#213

Post by imgabe »

dragonwriter wrote: post #210
imgabe wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Lambda already forgoes loan repayment if the student doesn't get a job making at least $50k. So why would they go about trying to collect loans from people declaring bankruptcy when they already give up on loans in other circumstances where they would be much easier to pursue? It seems like Lambda was just genuinely confused about what the regulations were regarding their loans and whether they could be discharge…

> But Lambda already forgoes loan repayment if the student doesn't get a job making at least $50k. No, it doesn’t, ever , for the California Retail Installment Contract at issue. Their ISA, defers for five years and then discharges.

What does it mean that it defers for five years and then discharges?

To me, defers means you are not required to make payments during that time.

Discharges means that the obligation is removed and you never have to make any payments.

So...if you go five years without getting a job that makes 50k, the ISA defers ... and is then discharged? You never pay it back?

How is that different from what I said?

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#214

Post by sugarwater »

hluska wrote: post #203
sugarwater wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a student that went through the program, I question if their incentives were aligned. During the middle of my enrollment at the program (Sept 2020), the school suddenly dropped all notion of grading, code review, and attendance, let alone the length of the program. It remained this way for 3 months, 50% of the length of the program. This is a broad description of the changes, but I want to emphasize that the chang…

Are you doing okay now?? That sounds awful...:(

I graduated at the end of February and am still job searching.

In the meantime I have a part time job and working through the MIT Computer Science OCW

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#215

Post by 40four »

It makes me sad that many of the prominent boot-camps now have such a bad reputation, and seem to be run so poorly, or recklessly.

I feel lucky to have enrolled at, now defunct, The Iron Yard at it’s peak in the end of 2016. I owe them everything for teaching me and coaching me into how to break into my new career as a web developer. It was life changing.

I can only speak for my particular campus, but I imagine it was similar at every other location. Never once, starting from my first interview, did they mislead me or make empty promises. They never guaranteed us anything.

They basically said, “You’re going to pay us $15K for 3 months, and it’s going to be one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. We can’t guarantee you a job but we will do our damndest to teach you & help you navigate the application process.”

And I still respect them for that. The people there were super smart and amazing mentors. The onus was always put on us to work our asses of and make our dream of being a coder come true on our own accord. RIP The Iron Yard.

I hate reading stories about Lambda and others, and reports from students who got chewed up and spit out by the system. They give ‘boot camps’ a bad name, and I’m hopeful soon there will be a school who rises to the top and will be as upstanding as the people I worked with. Someone needs to give coding bootcamps a good name again.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#216

Post by dragonwriter »

imgabe wrote: post #213
dragonwriter wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Lambda already forgoes loan repayment if the student doesn't get a job making at least $50k. No, it doesn’t, ever , for the California Retail Installment Contract at issue. Their ISA, defers for five years and then discharges.

What does it mean that it defers for five years and then discharges? To me, defers means you are not required to make payments during that time. Discharges means that the obligation is removed and you never have to make any payments. So...if you go five years without getting a job that makes 50k, the ISA defers ... and is then discharged? You never pay it back? How is that different from what I said?

> How is that different from what I said?

Its different from what you said (or alternatively, what tou said is a nonsequitur to the discussion of the article, hard to tell which) because it applies only to their ISA, which for legal reasons isn’t used in California and is not what they are in trouble for lying about.

They are in trouble for misrepresenting the Retail Installment Contract, which is used exclusively in California, and which is deferred when income is under $50K, but is never discharged/forgiven except by full payment.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#217

Post by stevesearer »

kevingadd wrote: post #206
wheelie_boy wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a feature available to mere mortals. Your assumption seems likely.

Even more than that, one of the administrators previously told me via email that HN is not able to rename accounts (presumably they use account names instead of numeric IDs as a key somewhere). So the only explanation for the displayed author on that post having changed is that they switched the author of the post, the original author's account could not have been renamed.

The account creation date for user _pecl is also the same date the comment was made so maybe it is possible to make a new user, change their creation date, and also change the attribution of specific comments to that user?

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#218

Post by imgabe »

dragonwriter wrote: post #216
imgabe wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean that it defers for five years and then discharges? To me, defers means you are not required to make payments during that time. Discharges means that the obligation is removed and you never have to make any payments. So...if you go five years without getting a job that makes 50k, the ISA defers ... and is then discharged? You never pay it back? How is that different from what I said?

> How is that different from what I said? Its different from what you said (or alternatively, what tou said is a nonsequitur to the discussion of the article, hard to tell which) because it applies only to their ISA, which for legal reasons isn’t used in California and is not what they are in trouble for lying about. They are in trouble for misrepresenting the Retail Installment Contract, which is used exclusively in…

So basically, California specifically forced them to create a special contract, different from the one they use everywhere else, that couldn't be discharged and then censured them for not clearly enough stating that the special California contract couldn't be discharged?

Sounds very California.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#219

Post by hluska »

sugarwater wrote: post #214
hluska wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you doing okay now?? That sounds awful...:(

I graduated at the end of February and am still job searching. In the meantime I have a part time job and working through the MIT Computer Science OCW

If I was in a position to offer you something I would but I’m not. With some luck, someone else will see this and help you out.

That said, I’ve read through your profile and you’re a heck of a good writer. You likely don’t need any help and you’re going to do very well for yourself!! :)

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#220

Post by lsiebert »

dragonwriter wrote: post #207
throwhalflife wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, if possible, would like some more clarification, since I'm still a bit confused (if not more confused) after reading this. Are you suggesting this isn't an introduction of new regulations per se, since it was always a deceptive statement? Or was the law actually changed by this California department specifically because of what Lambda was doing? I get that the finance agreement was "innovative", but either…

> Are you suggesting this isn't an introduction of new regulations per se, since it was always a deceptive statement? It was always false and deliberately deceptive to claim that Lambda’s California Retail Installment Contracts were qualified education loans under federal law, and therefore subject to discharge only on cases of undue hardship. Lying about that in commerce in CA was not previously something for which…

100%. It might have been a civil cause of action before, but now it's regulated by the DPFI.

Obviously ask your lawyer if you need legal advice, don't rely on anyone commenting on HN, but just as a general rule of thumb it's a bad idea to make deceptive or misleading statements to people you do business with.

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