The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts • Hacker News Board

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#211

Post by nkmnz » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 9:34 AM UTC

MagnumOpus wrote: post #203

cycomanic wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is, it works in pretty much any other western country. Now speaking about Germany there's essentially two police arms. The state police and the federal police. I don't see why every government department needs a police. Yes there are specific crimes that you might want to investigate, but you don't have to have police for that. Look for example to IRS they can have investigators, but they don't need polic…

I hear you, though, even in Germany there are other separate police forces under different ministries, like the Zoll (customs and immigration), the Feldjaeger (military police), and Justizvollzug (correctional officers and prisoner transport) - and each one of them has SWAT-like teams in addition to the forces of state and federal police. There are also a lot of other public officers with limited police powers and di…

Some cities like Frankfurt also started to rename the „Ordnungsamt“ to „Stadtpolizei“ (City Police). Also, we should not forget that we have quite some presence of US military police around US bases like Ramstein, Kaiserslautern and NATO Headquaters.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#212

Post by hundreddaysoff » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:12 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #207

cryptoquick wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm asking a question of crime priority, and whether some crimes are more likely to be punished because a disproportionate amount of policing is put in place towards that sort of crime. If the same resources that were dedicated to the numerous policing agencies in the US were given to a smaller number of more generalized agencies, those agencies would be allowed to prioritize where their time and resources ar…

I would rather the public collectively decide (assuming an effective representative government) how much we should prioritize X vs Y rather than just giving a giant pile of money and saying to the cops “do with this money whatever you think is best”. These people have a monopoly on legally sanctioned violence. If you think there is any merit in anti-trust for businesses or that big tech should be broken up, I hope yo…

Agree. What is the point of all these laws on the books if they aren't enforced? That will just encourage people to break them when word gets out.

If the counterargument is that these "crimes" shouldn't actually be crimes, then the solution is to remove the laws, no?

But I suppose that whether removing the laws is feasible is another can of worms.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#213

Post by rocqua » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:25 AM UTC

015a wrote: post #184

oblib wrote: post #100

This is a tough issue for a government. We do have crazies out there and we do need to investigate potential dangerous groups and individuals and reel them in before they do something crazy. On my FB feed I have seen friends and friends of friends call for armed revolt many times over the past few years. Most all of them are blowing steam and many are in their 60s or older and couldn't run a block in gym shorts, and…

It doesn't need to be monitored. It needs to be deescalated. The left wants to believe its blameless, but there's a massive portion of America that, per their believe foundation, disagrees with the policies they are putting in place. We live in a Democracy; the only "right" way forward is the one we all agree with, and we can't agree on anything right now. I don't know how to deescalate it, but its beginning to feel…

> there's a massive portion of America that, per their believe foundation, disagrees with the policies they are putting in place. We live in a Democracy; the only "right" way forward is the one we all agree with, and we can't agree on anything right now.

I mostly agree. Especially that the speed with which progressive policies have been adapted has alienated a lot of people. The same has happened with conservatives trying to roll back some of these policies alienating the progressives. This has weakened faith in democracy, which is rather bad.

My conclusion is that broad consensus and middle ground needs to be found. This requires having debate that has some good-faith. And requires some amount of empathy for the opposing side. How America could get back to that is hard.

I am not sure whether more state-authority would help that much. These fundamental disagreements also exists within states, and both sides care a lot about people outside their state. Democrats in California would not accept banning abortion in Arkansas. Nor would republicans in Texas be happy if Oregon bans firearm ownership. In fact, I fear that either case happening would only drive the polarization.

It would let either party vilify and generalize their opponents based on the in their view horrible things done by those parties in their states.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#214

Post by ArnoVW » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:32 AM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #97

ryandrake wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will say that personally I have fewer concerns about programs to monitor public content on the Internet, than programs that seek to access, monitor, and store content that people intended to be privately communicated to other people. This distinction is disappearing quickly in the current Internet, where conversations are increasingly company-mediated and facilitated. There's no such thing as a "private" conversa…

Yes, but I think OP is saying that the law should protect intent. Just like with the physical mail system. It is illegal to open a letter addressed to somebody else (though, warrants can override this). But I am fine with the principle. On the other hand, if you stick a huge banner out the front of your house, that information is fair game. Just like posting on your Twitter profile or blog. The intent was never for i…

Not a correction, but I'd like to add a small precision to that because I've seen the same argument used in other contexts.

For Twitter and Facebook I tend to agree, as there is an active intent (as you say) of publication. However, I've seen people reason in the same way with respect to licence plate or face recognition: "but the information is public".

The fact that technology now allows us to treat licenceplates or faces information globally, in very cheap way, means that a fundamental new capacity is created.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#215

Post by getlawgdon » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 11:41 AM UTC

TheBlight wrote: post #111

oblib wrote: post #100

This is a tough issue for a government. We do have crazies out there and we do need to investigate potential dangerous groups and individuals and reel them in before they do something crazy. On my FB feed I have seen friends and friends of friends call for armed revolt many times over the past few years. Most all of them are blowing steam and many are in their 60s or older and couldn't run a block in gym shorts, and…

FWIW, the protestors at the capitol didn't kill anyone.

Person you're replying to didn't say that the protesters killed anyone directly.They said "lives were lost." But it is obviously highly probable that those death occurred due to their activities.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#216

Post by BBC-vs-neolibs » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

lodovic wrote: post #200

cycomanic wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing is, it works in pretty much any other western country. Now speaking about Germany there's essentially two police arms. The state police and the federal police. I don't see why every government department needs a police. Yes there are specific crimes that you might want to investigate, but you don't have to have police for that. Look for example to IRS they can have investigators, but they don't need polic…

In the Netherlands, we have national police, local police, military police, railroad police, forest police, border police, and so on. They are all fairly independent of each other and have separate jurisdictions.

In Sweden, there was until just recently, 21 regional indendepent police, plus a national investigative unit. (And the secret police and the military police.)

Now the 21 regional police have been merged into one national police.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#217

Post by tacocataco » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 1:12 PM UTC

morpheuskafka wrote: post #190

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They were created to meet the specific law enforcement needs of each agency. Dept of Education agents investigate misuse of Dept of Education funds, That's a really charitable way of saying "handle petty stuff that the FBI can't justify spending resources on". Every specialty police department exists for this reason and this reason only. Because the mission is often so petty they wouldn't get any resources if it was…

Wait till you hear about privately-owned company and railroad police departments...

Do these private police have more authority than the private security hired by other businesses?

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#218

Post by hattar » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #162

BurningFrog wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes a lot of sense to me that each department handles their own law enforcement, and can set the priorities they prefer. One centralized Federal Police Department would be a single point of failure and bureaucratic nightmare. Imagine if there were not State and local police departments. Just the FBI managing every shoplifting arrest in the country.

On the flip side, there are plenty of countries that do just have a national police force, or a handful of regional departments, and don't have tens of thousands of independent police forces like America does. They tend to do just fine.

Any with a population and land spread comparable to the US? I imagine that would make more sense in a small country with low diversity of terrain/population/etc.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#219

Post by toss1 » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

earleybird wrote: post #140

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They were created to meet the specific law enforcement needs of each agency. Dept of Education agents investigate misuse of Dept of Education funds, That's a really charitable way of saying "handle petty stuff that the FBI can't justify spending resources on". Every specialty police department exists for this reason and this reason only. Because the mission is often so petty they wouldn't get any resources if it was…

As it was, so it is. The Cuckoo's Egg, Cliff Stoll; from the wikipedia article "a general reluctance to share information; the FBI in particular was uninterested as no large sum of money was involved and no classified information host was accessed" Cliff of course gives a very entertaining description of getting investigators interest. Should be required reading for anyone doing/interested in security.

Indeed, and excellent book that should be required reading for any computer professional, even outside of security.

No relationship other than being impressed with the work.

https://www.amazon.com/Cuckoos-Egg-Tracking-Computer-Espiona...

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#220

Post by dr-detroit » Fri, Apr 23, 2021, 2:01 PM UTC

maybelsyrup wrote: post #199

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They were created to meet the specific law enforcement needs of each agency. Dept of Education agents investigate misuse of Dept of Education funds, That's a really charitable way of saying "handle petty stuff that the FBI can't justify spending resources on". Every specialty police department exists for this reason and this reason only. Because the mission is often so petty they wouldn't get any resources if it was…

I have a story that captures what you're saying fairly well. About a decade ago I was living in a major southern US city in the more modestly priced part of an upscale area of town. I came back to the area from work fairly early in the afternoon, rounded the bend, and saw both sides of the street littered with unmarked police cars and vans, with many, many extremely large men in suits and sunglasses running around, d…

As long as they suppress competition for the alcohol racket they justify the expense of their tactical cybernetics because it keeps the taxes flowing.