Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

protocol.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 238 posts

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#211

Post by thethethethe »

908B64B197 wrote: post #201
thethethethe wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there even a position to move up to? Yes, it is common for data center workers and tech support to move up to sysadmin or something similar sometimes even SRE. They are given a 6 month trial period on a team to train and then go through the external interview process afterwards > That's something they should bring to Modis, their employers The whole point here is that they effectively work for Google, and Modis…

> Yes, it is common for data center workers and tech support to move up to sysadmin or something similar sometimes even SRE. It sounds like they isolated tasks that are performed frequently enough and need no specialization and decided to outsource these. Maybe as a stopgap before they get completely automated. I don't think these were ever intended as entry level to something else.

> I don't think these were ever intended as entry level to something else

They said in the article that there was a chance you could get hired into corporate originally but that process was removed.

> It sounds like they isolated tasks that are performed frequently enough and need no specialization and decided to outsource these. Maybe as a stopgap before they get completely automated.

Yeah but that doesn't mean we should be treating workers like shit

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#212

Post by downrightmike »

kodah wrote: post #113
KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very clear explanation in the article about the reason for this from an employment attorney. It's necessary so that Google can falsely classify these workers as non-employees. Under existing IRS guidelines, a company can't arbitrarily determine which workers are full employees and which are contractors. The business has to be able to prove when a worker meets certain key legal definitions about contract wor…

It is federal law that makes them do this, but it's also because they are in fact using contractors for full time work, they're just doing the bare minimum to separate the two.

They do it to keep headcount down, this is just abuse. Feds have their rules because of past abuse. This should be added.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#213

Post by [deleted] »

coryking wrote: post #138
frankbreetz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but why are they no allow to do the same job as a Google employee? Isn't starting as a contractor and being brought on as an fte common practice?

> but why are they no allow to do the same job as a Google employee? That is how it is if you are a contractor working for any tech company. The actual shitty part about being a "contractor" is you are almost always a W2 for the contracting firm. Which means you get none of the benefits of actually being a real contractor. As a 1099 you can: * Deduct (and potentially charge for) a ton of shit like travel expenses, ha…

[deleted]

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#214

Post by GuB-42 »

908B64B197 wrote: post #173
GuB-42 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no single way of doing contract work. And the kind of thing Google does provide very little benefit to the contractor vs an employee. I don't know how it is in the US but we have the same issues in France. The law is called "délit de marchandage" and what it means, essentially, is that a contractor is treated like an employee but without the benefits of an employee. The idea of the law is that contract work…

Part of the problem in France is that it seems firing underperforming employees is almost impossible (multi-year process)

Yes, it can be very difficult.

But for it to be a multi-year process, it has to be an exceptional situation. Often involving court battles, unions, etc... In practice, most employees don't want to stay in a company where they are unwanted, they may try to negotiate a bonus but rarely fight to the bitter end. But sometimes, it happens, and it is one of the things small employers fear the most.

Getting fired can actually be a good deal for the employee because he will get unemployment benefits after that, whereas if you quit, you won't.

But generally, you are right by saying that in France having an employee is a big commitment for a company, plus, large companies often have unions.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#215

Post by izacus »

freeone3000 wrote: post #133
frankbreetz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but why are they no allow to do the same job as a Google employee? Isn't starting as a contractor and being brought on as an fte common practice?

Because if they're doing the job an FTE does, they should be full-time from the start. Otherwise, a company could be doing software development or food delivery or whatever and have no employees at all, merely having them all be "independent" "contractors" with very few legal protections.

You just invented Uber. Congratulations, you're rich!

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#216

Post by 908B64B197 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #214
908B64B197 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem in France is that it seems firing underperforming employees is almost impossible (multi-year process)

Yes, it can be very difficult. But for it to be a multi-year process, it has to be an exceptional situation. Often involving court battles, unions, etc... In practice, most employees don't want to stay in a company where they are unwanted, they may try to negotiate a bonus but rarely fight to the bitter end. But sometimes, it happens, and it is one of the things small employers fear the most. Getting fired can actual…

Sounds like that legislation doesn't work at all for startups.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#217

Post by GuB-42 »

908B64B197 wrote: post #216
GuB-42 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it can be very difficult. But for it to be a multi-year process, it has to be an exceptional situation. Often involving court battles, unions, etc... In practice, most employees don't want to stay in a company where they are unwanted, they may try to negotiate a bonus but rarely fight to the bitter end. But sometimes, it happens, and it is one of the things small employers fear the most. Getting fired can actual…

Sounds like that legislation doesn't work at all for startups.

Startups have some benefits to compensate. Less legal obligations, less taxes, and sometimes subsidies.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#219

Post by username90 »

thethethethe wrote: post #166
username90 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right it is unfair. So now Google decides to hire everyone and pay everyone the same $12 an hour + full time benefits. That would make everyone happy, no?

If I am understanding you correctly, this seems like a strawman. You don't need to equalize everyone's pay to make the material lives of these data center workers better, nobody asked for that anyways. People are simply asking to be treated the same as the people who do the same work but have a different colored badge, and not to be fired every two years. It doesn't really seem like that much to ask for

What makes you think the way Google paid and hired datacenter workers before wasn't way too much and they now are nice to keep them at that level instead of firing them all replacing them with cheaper people?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#220

Post by cregaleus »

dx034 wrote: post #38
randomifcpfan wrote: post #20

This is all due to Microsoft contractors (who were treated like regular employees in the 80s and 90s) winning a lawsuit that retroactively forced Microsoft to give them a ton of stock. Companies now have to be rude to contractors to avoid a similar lawsuit. https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/13/business/technology-temp-...

Or they could hire them as employees. This is not temporary work, they only use agencies to save money and circumvent workers protections. I get that there are freelancers who like not being employees but that's not the case here. I bet most Temps at Google would love getting employee status and there's no reason most of them shouldn't. It's not like Google couldn't afford the extra payroll.

Or they could keep them as contractors and discontinue their contracts every two years. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Post reply on HN