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Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

truzzi.me

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Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#211

Post by cletus »

teachingassist wrote: post #180
cletus wrote: post #160

So there are two issues with this: 1. If I were looking to hire someone and read this, I would immediately be turned off. Why? Because part of being an engineer (or any employee really) is doing a bunch of stuff people don't enjoy doing. This includes: - Writing documentation - Writing tests - Fixing bugs - Talking to partners about a change/launch - Talking to lawyers - etc So I would be wondering: if you're signali…

1. I agree the author hasn't emphasised those things. If I was in need of those things, I might not automatically engage with the author. But, you've given a list of what you don't like doing - that isn't a universal list. Given that the author asks to be deeply involved in a human-centred project, it is not obvious to me that they don't like or are not prepared to do these things.

The specific list of things doesn't matter. It'll vary from person to person and project to project. The point is, there'll always be something.

My point is that if you're signaling from the outset that you want to cherrypick those things then I, as your employer, don't actually know what you will or won't do. I don't know if you'll follow up on tricky-to-reproduce bugs (as an example) because that's "boring".

That's just creating work and uncertainty in dealing with those issues.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#212

Post by jrockway »

regularemployee wrote: post #187
cletus wrote: post #160

So there are two issues with this: 1. If I were looking to hire someone and read this, I would immediately be turned off. Why? Because part of being an engineer (or any employee really) is doing a bunch of stuff people don't enjoy doing. This includes: - Writing documentation - Writing tests - Fixing bugs - Talking to partners about a change/launch - Talking to lawyers - etc So I would be wondering: if you're signali…

> is doing a bunch of stuff people don't enjoy I enjoy writing documentation and writing tests. To me, writing documentation is like teaching others about the awesome product / features we have built, and also the different technical tradeoff decisions we had to make. I can't grasp the mindset where an engineer builds something really cool that they are proud of, but don't enjoy talking about it / teaching people how…

Explaining how you did the thing that you already did cuts into the time for building the next thing. The difficulty that people wrestle with isn't whether or not documenting something is valuable, but rather whether documenting that thing should cut into their sleep, recreational activity, or The Next Thing.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#213

Post by fnord77 »

cletus wrote: post #160

So there are two issues with this: 1. If I were looking to hire someone and read this, I would immediately be turned off. Why? Because part of being an engineer (or any employee really) is doing a bunch of stuff people don't enjoy doing. This includes: - Writing documentation - Writing tests - Fixing bugs - Talking to partners about a change/launch - Talking to lawyers - etc So I would be wondering: if you're signali…

I suspect dealing with this type of person would become a huge issue. This work request hints at overblown entitlement. I've seen these types in action, the relationship between this worker and the manager/other teammates can turn abusive.

Also imagine the impact on morale of the other teammates when some primadonna gets the cherry picked work and everyone else gets the drudgery. Pay or not.

Run.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#214

Post by azhenley »

freetime2 wrote: post #197
azhenley wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a minority of CS PhDs pursue a tenure-track position. I have found academia to be more laid back than big tech companies, but you are still expected to produce (e.g., a paper or two a year). The top programs probably have a more competitive culture than state schools. If you don’t want to produce research, then I don’t see the point in enrolling. I [luckily] haven’t experienced the scary stuff that people talk a…

How about teaching undergraduates? I seem to recall from my undergrad days that a lot of my TAs were pursuing PhDs. Is that something that PhD students are expected to do?

Some work as TAs. It is done part-time for funding (tuition waiver, monthly stipend, and insurance). It is not usually a requirement in US schools, although I recommend my students do it for at least a semester to get the experience. Otherwise they are funded as RAs.

A PhD is about doing research.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#215

Post by fnord77 »

regularemployee wrote: post #187
cletus wrote: post #160

So there are two issues with this: 1. If I were looking to hire someone and read this, I would immediately be turned off. Why? Because part of being an engineer (or any employee really) is doing a bunch of stuff people don't enjoy doing. This includes: - Writing documentation - Writing tests - Fixing bugs - Talking to partners about a change/launch - Talking to lawyers - etc So I would be wondering: if you're signali…

> is doing a bunch of stuff people don't enjoy I enjoy writing documentation and writing tests. To me, writing documentation is like teaching others about the awesome product / features we have built, and also the different technical tradeoff decisions we had to make. I can't grasp the mindset where an engineer builds something really cool that they are proud of, but don't enjoy talking about it / teaching people how…

it's almost like a form of solipsistic narcissism (the way The Last Psychiatrist describes it). Nobody else exists except as a supporting role. Why should they have to explain their genius work to anyone...

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#216

Post by groby_b »

cletus wrote: post #211
teachingassist wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I agree the author hasn't emphasised those things. If I was in need of those things, I might not automatically engage with the author. But, you've given a list of what you don't like doing - that isn't a universal list. Given that the author asks to be deeply involved in a human-centred project, it is not obvious to me that they don't like or are not prepared to do these things.

The specific list of things doesn't matter. It'll vary from person to person and project to project. The point is, there'll always be something. My point is that if you're signaling from the outset that you want to cherrypick those things then I, as your employer, don't actually know what you will or won't do. I don't know if you'll follow up on tricky-to-reproduce bugs (as an example) because that's "boring". That's…

If you as an employer are not able to deal with the fact that different people have different preferences, you either are running a very small shop (2-4 people) which just makes that impossible, or you're probably not an employer that will attract people who aren't deliberately choosing a "cog in the machine" path.

I want to be very clear: There's nothing wrong with that path. There's nothing wrong with wanting to employ people who follow that path. But making it clear from the outset that he's not going to be a match for you specifically is likely a feature, not a bug.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#217

Post by decafninja »

clairity wrote: post #200
decafninja wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course this was communicated clearly - that the reason I would be willing to work for no pay was because my objective was to gain experience. I also mentioned that if they considered me valuable and worthwhile enough, to feel free to take me on as a "real" employee down the road.

that's not clear at all. you essentially keep say you'd "work for free", rather than "my work is worth x, let's exchange". the latter puts you on equal footing psychologically, while the former puts you at a distinct disadvantage.

No, I mean back when I was actually doing this. The communications to the companies I would reach out. Not my posting HN.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#218

Post by dfraser992 »

freetime2 wrote: post #150
azhenley wrote: post #10

My advice: pursue a PhD. If you can find the right advisor, then you will have almost complete creative freedom to pursue interesting projects while getting paid to do it.

I have considered retiring from software development and pursuing a PhD. But I have heard some scary things about the culture and competitiveness in academia. Are there “laid back” PhD programs for people for people who don’t really have an interest in tenure track, but just want to learn and apply themselves to some novel problem?

I have pretty much retired (i.e. suck at interviews and can't deal with the nonsense in industry anymore and am not one for management) and am thinking of going to get a PhD just because these days, I like doing research for the hell of it. Someday I will finish writing my first paper.... If I ever get a full time job again, it will have to be some sort of researchy sort of thing, so a PhD will be useful to get past HR etc.

Your PhD program is what you make of it. If you are not interested in going into full time academia, the uni will still take your money if you look like a good candidate and can get through the program. I suppose you have to worry about competing with other students if you both are trying to get the one open position with a professor... So make sure you can pay your own way and then you won't be dependent on being a wage slave for the university and all that industry-lite crap.

But really, ask yourself over and over "why do I want a PhD?" until you're sure of the answer - it is 3+ years of your life doing only that and it could be brutal due to the workload etc.

Engineering/CS programs are probably more laid back or less 'political' (i.e. those scary stories) than humanities or other STEM degrees. I have noticed some interpersonal drama in some sense just hanging around the uni these last few years, e.g. students and dealing with them, a general sense of the academic environment. But I make sure to stay out of it.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#219

Post by ketzo »

gtowey wrote: post #198
ketzo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your overall sentiment, but: > If you see those things as "the boring bits" that you don't want to do then you're not a developer. Don't we already have enough gatekeeping in software development? I don't particularly enjoy writing documentation, despite how important I know it to be. That doesn't make me "not a developer." If I were lazy and simply chose not to do the things that bored me (despite their…

> Don't we already have enough gatekeeping in software development? No. In fact I hope anyone who's actually worked in the software industry would see that we don't have nearly enough! Look I'll agree with you about the evils of gatekeeping if we're talking about who gets to call themselves an artist or a writer. Those kinds of distinctions rarely create life or death consequences. But software can. Not all the time,…

Huh. Plus one to you -- you have meaningfully changed my opinion.

Re: Hire me and pay what you want, just give me interesting work

#220

Post by CleanCoder »

qiqitori wrote: post #210
CleanCoder wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am most curious about the "no technical interview" part and "my work speaks for my skills" while OP's GitHub is just forks. This all really reads in an uncomfortable way and I would never risk investing into somebody by guessing if whatever I need done, as a business, will be interesting enough for this person to put genuine effort into. I feel like OP needs hobbies to get the fun/interesting itch scratched and the…

> I am most curious about the "no technical interview" part and "my work speaks for my skills" while OP's GitHub is just forks. On Github you have to fork a project first if you want to create a pull request. I randomly opened three of the forks and saw that he'd made pull requests for two of them.

I fully understand the way forks work - what I found troubling is that for somebody who is dying to do something interesting, for close to no pay, there seems to be little indication of them doing things out of pure passion/interest as is. For somebody expecting me to hand pick things that are super fun to work on there is not enough incentive/conviction for me to trust this person and/or invest any time into onboarding/managing them. That's literally why you get paid "the big bucks" - the employer can demand specific things without having to depend on your mood and attitude towards task A.

The only thing I can suggest to the author is what others have already said - go in to academia/research and volunteer your time to selected interests.

One scenario in which the author's attitude and desires could work is if he starts his own business and focuses on the fun things while paying others to do the boring stuff. But then again - building a successful business to achieve the luxury of total choice takes a lot of "boring" work beforehand.

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