Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#211

Post by llampx » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #106

tonyjstark wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. The city itself should build as many cheap rental apartments as possible, also in more higher-priced areas to keep the pricing there in check. Building more housing is the only way out of this soaring pricing. EDIT: not only rental apartments of course but more housing in general. A second step would be, to make sure that rental housing is used for that instead of AirBNB or any other investment. It would a…

So here in the UK, our councils used to build social housing. 300,000 per year. And then Thatcher made it illegal and said privately owned housing associations would fill the gap. In the 30 years since then, the most they've ever managed is 30,000. It's not in private landowner's interest to build cheap social housing. It reduces rents, it suppresses property values. So they don't get built. If they do build anything…

Thatcher has been out of office since decades. If this was important to the people they would vote for people who promise to bring it back.

Or politicians are corrupt and Thatcher is a good excuse. Take your pick.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#212

Post by mattmanser » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

Tenoke wrote: post #130

mattmanser wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here in the UK, our councils used to build social housing. 300,000 per year. And then Thatcher made it illegal and said privately owned housing associations would fill the gap. In the 30 years since then, the most they've ever managed is 30,000. It's not in private landowner's interest to build cheap social housing. It reduces rents, it suppresses property values. So they don't get built. If they do build anything…

I'd take them building more expensive housing (as long as it's not used purely as an empty investment vehicle as in London) over barely building anything at all. I know people who would've paid a bit more for a nicer place but their options were too limited, so I'd expect some trickle-up/down effect at least.

This "trickle-up/down effect" is the exact excuse they've been using to justify it.

As far as I know, it's a widely discredited theory, never based on any actual studies.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#213

Post by mattmanser » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

kokey wrote: post #181

Tenoke wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take them building more expensive housing (as long as it's not used purely as an empty investment vehicle as in London) over barely building anything at all. I know people who would've paid a bit more for a nicer place but their options were too limited, so I'd expect some trickle-up/down effect at least.

There is a point when you run out of people who are willing to spend millions on the empty investment vehicles so I'm hoping even those properties will help with supply when the tide eventually do go out. Unfortunately it could take a very long time before this happens.

Isn't it widely used for money laundering and wealth sheltering? Don't think there's an end to that money.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#214

Post by dukeyukey » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

avh02 wrote: post #103

kuu wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing situation in Germany is so fucked Housing situation in London is so fucked Housing situation in Spain is so fucked Housing situation in Canada is so fucked .... I'm not an expert, but I see a pattern there...

I used to live in Dubai - i got there at almost peak rent/real estate... I look at rents now, and they're just under half what i was paying. Sometimes tides turn the other way too.

The way I understand it, investment is pouring into real-estate in countries thought to be long-term stable, mostly by investors in less-stable countries. The UAE has a lot going for it, but geopolitical stability isn't one of them.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#215

Post by amelius » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

durnygbur wrote: post #17

Housing situation in Germany for anyone born after 1980 is so fucked.

Yes. Since we have two levels of living costs, we should have two numbers of inflation! :)

This makes me wonder: is inflation calculated based on averages or based on medians?

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#216

Post by HotHotLava » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:48 AM UTC

flohofwoe wrote: post #87

throw4738 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you stay months in hotel or Airbnb. And that is only available option.

AirBnB is part of the problem btw. There are at least 4 fulltime AirBnB flats on my building floor (that I'm aware of). I'm assuming it's AirBnB because there's a very high "fluctuation" of new people in those flats (few days to 2 or 3 weeks). Imagine if all those AirBnBs would be available for longterm renting ;)

Since 2014 you need to have an official permission to use a flat for AirBnb. If you suspect these are illegally rented out, you can report them to the Berlin government here:

https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/zweckentfremdu...

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#217

Post by llampx » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

kokey wrote: post #181

Tenoke wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take them building more expensive housing (as long as it's not used purely as an empty investment vehicle as in London) over barely building anything at all. I know people who would've paid a bit more for a nicer place but their options were too limited, so I'd expect some trickle-up/down effect at least.

There is a point when you run out of people who are willing to spend millions on the empty investment vehicles so I'm hoping even those properties will help with supply when the tide eventually do go out. Unfortunately it could take a very long time before this happens.

There are millions of chinese and other people who want safe investment vehicles. If the government does nothing, land and housing in a big capital can easily be usurped by investors who then take massive tax breaks.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#218

Post by EdwinLarkin » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #201

EdwinLarkin wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite actually.Increase capitalism and reduce government control and you get more housing.

Yes, as we can see from the very great examples of where this approach worked perfectly. Now every one is perfectly housed in decent conditions and for cheap in United States or South Korea. We all know the dozens of thousands of homeless folks in San Francisco and around really want to live in slums or on the streets, and their situation has nothing to do with speculation, gentrification and AirBNB. /s

Are you South Korean? What do you know about South Korea's real estate?

Either way I would say housing in Japan (considering all the constraints) seems to work great.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#219

Post by llampx » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

flohofwoe wrote: post #33

adrianN wrote: post #11

I wish Berlin would just build more housing instead. For example when I cross the street there is a supermarket. It's a single story building with a huge parking lot around it. Why not make it a multistory building with apartments on top of the supermarket and skip the parking space or put it underground? Why does the city give out building permits for such buildings? There could easily be room for thirty families on…

That's already happening with two Edeka markets in my neighbourhood, they teared down the old markets, and replace(d) them with new buildings with the market on the bottom floor, and flats on top. Drop in the bucket though I think. I don't think the city is giving out new building permits for this type of stuff, and many of those markets have either been there "forever", or have been built after the reunification (an…

You hit on the major problem. That it's hard to build in the city. So many ugly buildings under Denkmalschutz, so many empty concrete spaces and people still want to live where the facilities are, not in the outskirts if they have the choice.

Re: Berlin rent cap overturned by Germany's top court

#220

Post by dathinab » Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 9:52 AM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #145

Without judging the outcome, here are a few things HN readers might not be aware of: - The supply of rental apartments dropped by 40-60% after the Mietendeckel came in effect. It became even harder to find an apartment in Berlin. Landlords were holding their breaths. - The supply of housing for sale also dwindled. If I'm not mistaken, sellers were waiting for the court judgement to rent/sell. - The Mietendeckel also…

Also, and maybe most important:

In the majority(?) of cases it did not work.

Landlords found absurd ways to work around it. Many not necessary fully legal but only in a way that if no one who is "hurt" by it sues the state can not act.

There where enough people which where open to pay the de-facto increased "not so legal" Rent, and as such would definitely not sure.

A common trick was to pair the rent contract with Renting some token furniture for completely unreasonable (and as such somewhat illegal/moon-) prices. (note: this wasn't the same as the rent prices for furnished apartments exception thingy mentioned by others)

Again if both renter and rentee are happy with it there is nothing which the state could have done.

Also more apartments where sold instead of rented out, in turn decreasing the amount of rente-able apartments while the demand did change (maybe except due to COVID, I would have to look it up). Furthermore it's not uncommon that such apartments do not enter the rent pool again even if the person in question leaves Berlin (and then illegally perma rents it over RBnB to tourists, or keeps it empty or resells it or ...)

Lastly due to majorly increased renovation costs (as far as I know) and now rent caps it was basically much less likely for any new apartments to be added to the pool. And even (potentially necessary) renovations of existing ones was much less likely done (as far as I have heard from people involved in that business, through not the very big players, but it matches the experience other cities which did impose rent caps had).

And just to be clear Rents in Berlin reaching a point where it's problematic for many people from Berlin to pay them IS a massive problem. Just that this law as far as I can tell would not have solved it and maybe even made it worse. Also yes Rents had been unusual low in the past (I'm personally profiting from this) but now they have gone beyond any reasonable price in many cases (at least in context what many people earn in Berlin).