Live data from Hacker News

Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

oreilly.com

211–220 of 302 posts

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California doesn't have a high tax burden. If you manage to get a house you're actually set, it's a feudal system where you essentially never have to pay taxes again, since your property tax will be below inflation forever.

Compared to what? California is not exactly known as tax heaven.

That’s because the only people who complain about “taxes” in general terms are propagandists like Grover Norquist who don’t care about reality. People actually trying to skip on their tax bills like Musk tend to do it quietly and make up excuses.

Anyone who lives here knows perfectly well that their neighbor who bought a house in the 80s has a property tax bill 10x lower than theirs - actually I live next to several car dealerships who’d pay less than I would if I could afford a house here. That’s the power of Prop 13.

Besides that, CA residents are probably getting a tax refund this year because the state has a budget surplus.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#212

I started a PhD in biomedical engineering back in 2017, coming from a EEE background. The topic I was studying was the application of machine learning for neurosignal decoding. Imagine the development of a "thought keyboard" that could be used by someone with motor neurone disease to communicate with their family or drive a robotic arm - young me was excited! While it's true that the field had shifted towards machine…

Forgive me for my ignorance, but could the issue have not been the ML but rather, put simply, the input data? Is it the case that we truly know what signals to measure to get a clear indication of intent? It seems to me the answer is no (then ML is not going to help)?

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#213
At the heart of progressive thought is concern over the twin evils of oppression and exploitation. O'Reilly’s piece focuses on the latter but relies on the assumption that profit==exploitation. I’m not convinced it is that simple.

I wish I could have had a chat with Milton about the Friedman doctrine [1]. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. From my perspective, shareholder value is a relatively easy measure that acts as a proxy for the true goal of a corporation: creating sustainable customer value.

Within the context of his original article, Friedman was arguing that customers, employees, and shareholders could choose to give to charity, for instance, but it is wrong for a corporation to do it on their behalf. The concept is not intuitive but it is far from promoting selfishness.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#214
Just a quick review of the four main points based on my own experience and also reworded hopefully respectfully:

1. Consumer internet founders are not great at life sciences

This is a distraction. Most of the money in internet has been with automating or supporting business operations for medium to large sized businesses. Life science tech brings unique challenges which is why so many life science tech companies are based in the valley or have offices here. Just to pick out one example the highest resolution ultrasound machines made come from a company based in the valley. This statement appears to be based more on the distracting powers of social media and consumer tech.

2. Internet regulation is upon us

This is good thing because regulations give consumers confidence in the reliability and safety of new technologies. Even the most care free developers do not expect that the current order of things will endure.

3. Climate response is capital intensive

This is a distraction from the fact that the most promising technologies for addressing climate response are extremely well represented in the valley. Analysis of orbital and aerial sensor data, automated sensors, control systems for solar and wind generation, modernized electrical grid support systems, and more were all led in part by companies in the valley. More to the point all of these technologies were initially developed by small companies for small applications. Real progress with climate response is likely to involve some big projects, but these projects will be successful because they are based on much smaller works.

4. The end of the betting economy

Economies are based on bets and consist of bets, as is said, all the way down. The difference is that the terms are changing. Instead of throwing money at pets.com or Facebook plugins or cryptocoin wallets founders are going to have to be more careful and sparing of resources. This is actually a good thing and is likely to at least in part lead to a return to business success competing with hype for available capital. The situation now is that investors can outspend customers in any sector so the venture capital space has become disconnected from genuine business success. Squeezing the slop out of the system should be good for everyone.

The analogy that comes to mind is being told that the future is being researched and started at universities and then concluding that frat parties do not yield meaningful tech progress, frat parties are consistently targeted for regulation, frat parties do not address social issues, therefore universities are not actually likely to host research and development that shapes the future. And yes, in this example the current giants in the valley are what amounts to a loud frat party.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to what? California is not exactly known as tax heaven.

That’s because the only people who complain about “taxes” in general terms are propagandists like Grover Norquist who don’t care about reality. People actually trying to skip on their tax bills like Musk tend to do it quietly and make up excuses. Anyone who lives here knows perfectly well that their neighbor who bought a house in the 80s has a property tax bill 10x lower than theirs - actually I live next to several…

So rant about local politics and shaming people who decide to leave.

I am sure California tax rate is under 70%, but I find it highly non transparent and unpredictable.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#216

I started a PhD in biomedical engineering back in 2017, coming from a EEE background. The topic I was studying was the application of machine learning for neurosignal decoding. Imagine the development of a "thought keyboard" that could be used by someone with motor neurone disease to communicate with their family or drive a robotic arm - young me was excited! While it's true that the field had shifted towards machine…

Really disappointing to hear this. The ML revolution is very real and so is the immense value it’s capable of granting us...HOWEVER it’s really only in a narrow category of problems and people don’t want to admit that so they try to shoehorn it into every corner of everything...not too dissimilar from blockchain. That narrow problem space where ML has become revolutionary is classification problems where the cost of…

My impression about ML is that it shines where "intuition of a master" is needed. That is, for example, the mastery of a "technician painter" who has build an intuition of imitating Van Gogh painting can be achieved through AI.

Any intuitive skill that can be built through hard work and years of experience seems to be within the realms of what AI/ML can learn to do. Separating background from the subjects, guessing the 3D shape of an object from a 2D image etc. Anything that people can master through experience, including stuff like "sensing that there's something fishy but can't tell exactly what" kind of intuition.

I bet that there would be welding machines that can help an amateur to weld like a master by learning and imitating the way a master welder does its job.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really disappointing to hear this. The ML revolution is very real and so is the immense value it’s capable of granting us...HOWEVER it’s really only in a narrow category of problems and people don’t want to admit that so they try to shoehorn it into every corner of everything...not too dissimilar from blockchain. That narrow problem space where ML has become revolutionary is classification problems where the cost of…

Seriously? A narrow category of problems? ML has been used and is being used to significantly advance image processing, video processing, image classification, speech-to-text, natural language understanding, medical imaging interpretation, medical notes and differential diagnosis, warehouse management, shipping and delivery, transportation, networking, agriculture, biomedical research, insurance, law practice (docume…

Seconded. Today’s “narrow”applications are quite wide compared to the expert systems of decades ago. I wouldn’t say we are in a second AI winter when cool new applications of DNNs pop up frequently on HN.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you are part of the problem? Maybe leaving would be best for both you and SF. I was born and raised in the area, and have watched as friends and family are forced out due to rising costs. These are folks who legitimately loved the area and were actively involved in their communities. And they get replaced by people who seem to only care about big paychecks and spend more time complaining about the area than a…

People are not leaving SF because tech employees are coming in. If nobody moved in, the economy would just get worse, housing wouldn't get any more available. The problem is that your parents go to every community meeting and get all the housing projects shut down to prevent "greedy developers". That's been happening consistently since the 70s.

Housing is cheaper when the economy is worse. See Berlin.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#219

Im so tired of random writers, even if it's O'Reilly himself, trying to predict that Silicon Valley is doomed. That's like saying Hollywood is doomed, or Wall Street is doomed. I've been around long enough to know that nothing will unseat Silicon Valley as the tech capital of the world. Silicon Valley has the critical mass of talent, VC money and greed that can't be replicated anywhere else in the world. There's a re…

> Silicon Valley will never die. Over what time period? It’s absurd to say this and mean forever, if you have ever opened a history book. Even America itself will pass out of dominance, as all superpowers have. Rome, Britain, etc. Change is the rule, not the exception. It is the natural way. https://marketcap.com.au/history-world-reserve-currencies/

The research at Los Alamos that Geoffrey West has summarized most recently in his book Scale demonstrates different dynamics are at work. Creatures and companies grow and age and die. Cities are a completely different construct. Rome and Londinium are both still large and influential. Two particularly stark demonstrations of this effect are Hiroshima and Nagasaki both of which were wiped off the map with nukes yet in roughly 30 years were back to being thriving urban conurbations. Times change, but influence remains more consistent than most expect. The startup scenes in Detroit and Cleveland are other examples of boom towns that were written off yet remain significant contributors.

Re: Other challenges to SV’s preeminence are more fundamental than the tech diaspora

#220

The article reminds me somewhat of an earlier O’Reilly piece, which taught me that the man’s got a bit of social consciousness in his critiques of SV: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23657403 I suspect the Pollyanna tone is why people aren’t actually engaging with the material in it. Applying machine learning to medical science is indeed exciting, but it’s hard to envision what exactly is the product that causes…

> Cities are dominated by a new class of highly paid big-company employees driving up housing costs and forcing out lower wage workers This is just an ignorant hot-take though that once again blames upper middle class tech employees for a housing problem caused solely by bad govern policies. There is no “domination” here considering that tech employees are well. 21 percent [1] are now considered tech jobs and the FAA…

> Governments are starved of revenue by giant companies that have mastered the art of tax avoidance.

Your rebuttal appears to miss the point that O'Reilly makes.

First: This page [1] shows business tax is about 1B of 6B total for San Francisco. In most cities in the United States, business tax is a relatively small part of total tax revenue. Most cities derive the largest proportion of tax revenue from property taxes. For SF, it is 2B per year -- the highest of any tax revenue category. SF property prices have risen a lot in the last ten years, so property tax has also risen. I understand some of this could be attributed to a strong economy combined with difficult regulations to build new residential housing. Thus, SF has seen a historic rise in housing prices.

Second: Speaking more specifically to O'Reilly's point about the "art of tax avoidance": Are you familiar with "base erosion and profit shifting (BEPS)"? Sometimes you hear the term "Dutch Sandwich" or "Double Irish arrangement" in media. Global (tech) companies can greatly reduce national taxes by using these tax strategies. Thus, they deny much needed tax revenue to various countries where they operate. Please note: These tax strategies are not only limited to tech. Any industry that is heavily weighted towards "intellectual property", such as pharma, uses similar tax strategies. (General Electric was one of the earliest and most aggressive.) Famously, even Starbucks, which isn't a very "IP intense" industry managed to pay zero national taxes in the UK one year. After some embarrassing news stories, they offered a voluntary payment to the UK nat'l gov't.

[1] https://sfgov.org/scorecards//finance/expenditures-and-reven...

Post reply on HN