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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#211

Post by watwut »

Barrin92 wrote: post #99
loveistheanswer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education Not at all; its more like breaking up with a toxic, manipulative, dishonest partner. There's many more fish in the sea and there's many more ways to heathily socialize than just Facebook. Though I suppose people in abusive relationships often have a sort of Stockholm syndrome where they see no alternatives.

not only do people in abusive relationships often have stockholm syndrome, many people are actually materially dependent on their partner, for example women who have stayed home a long time historically but also still today, and thus they literally cannot leave. Or they have children, or leaving might put others at risk. Point of working through the analogy being, even on an individual basis framing leaving a relatio…

The term is trauma bonding for psychological attachment in abusive situation. Stockholm syndrome is something else.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#212

Post by xg15 »

jillianschuller wrote: post #137
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions. This is going to make a world of difference the first time people try it. I started monitoring screen time/configuring notifications abou…

Sorry, but this reminds me a bit of the "now they are 15 standards" quote.

While well-intentioned, I think it's likely people will simply be checking Sunday and Facebook.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#213

Post by esperent »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #206
imtringued wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't sugar a suitable substitute for crack?

Ever try scamming a crack addict with sugar?

No, but I bet you could manipulate a child using sugar. Probably lots of adults too.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#214

Post by xg15 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. We also need to encourage people to take control of their feeds, muting users and topics who draw them into unproductive discussions.

Those tools are provided by exactly the same companies that were manufacturing the addiction in the first. The tools can be revoked or changed the second they show signs of actually being effective.

Sorry, but this is like asking your drug dealer to help you with becoming clean.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#215

Post by [deleted] »

mdpopescu wrote: post #58
HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

> If that isn't addiction, I don't know what is. In my case, boredom. I normally fix that by reading books on my Kindle, but if I don't have it for some reason, the phone is a good substitute.

[deleted]

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#216

Post by jcelerier »

gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

> But cramming is a very time-inefficient way to learn,

who are you to judge how I learn ?

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#217

Post by TeMPOraL »

jcelerier wrote: post #216
gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

> But cramming is a very time-inefficient way to learn, who are you to judge how I learn ?

Expanding your thought a bit: for example, for people with ADHD-PI, cramming may in fact be the only way in which they can learn the stuff they're not currently being obsessive about.

That said, you can't optimize for everyone simultaneously. There's plenty of cramming-friendly resources available.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#218

Post by TeMPOraL »

misdichotomy wrote: post #80
mywittyname wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know the common refrain is "Delete Facebook!" but that's the equivalent of abstinence-only education. We need to start talking about how to configure Screen Time on iOS, or how to use Facebook's built-in tools to hide content you don't want to see. I see it more akin to the opioid crisis. Just like drug manufactures shouldn't be pushing opioids as a way to deal with minor pain and depression because they know it…

> Normal people are seriously outgunned here. This is quite right. PragmaticPulp's phrase "an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals" is a bit of rhetorical jujitsu, creating a strawman to set up a rallying cry "I believe people have agency!" You don't have to assume that individuals are "helpless", as if they are generally helpless and lacking agency, to agree that these corporations are exp…

And, there's only so much time in the day. Nobody can afford to keep up to date with every possible threat the market throws at us, and to stay vigilant and proactive. You end up picking your battles.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#219

Post by hutzlibu »

edmundsauto wrote: post #172
hutzlibu wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It can be manipulative and it can also be beneficial to the user" Example please, how it can be beneficial to me, to be manipulated by ads.

Ads pay for a service that allows you to video chat on a reliable and private connection with anyone in the world, for free. They also pay for google search, which has immense value to you.

The ads are still not beneficial to me.

I simply trade something bad for value.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#220

Post by dna_polymerase »

charcircuit wrote: post #143
gary_bernhardt wrote: post #132

Here's an anecdote about what happens when you design a product in the opposite way. I own https://www.executeprogram.com , which has interactive in-browser courses on various software development technologies. Currently they all cover languages, more or less: TypeScript, SQL, various JS topics, regexes. (Disclosure: it costs money after you finish your 16th lesson.) Almost all (maybe literally all) of our competitor…

Just because there are spaces, it doesn't mean something isn't "addictive." I was addicted to WaniKani when I first started it even if I wasn't binging it. Optimizing your product so users come every day (and hence every month paying for a subscription) you care that users engage every day more than the amount that they engage every day. Advertisement monetization streams care about how much time users are on the pla…

> Just because there are spaces, it doesn't mean something isn't "addictive."

Right, this results in habit creation, which means sustainable addiction.

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