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In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

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211–220 of 352 posts

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they just meant INTJ or INTP. The functions are part of the controversial Jungian ideas the article mentioned. Most people ignore them entirely and treat the preferences as axes.

> The functions are part of the controversial Jungian ideas the article mentioned. Most people ignore them entirely and treat the preferences as axes. They do. And IMO this is exactly why the results never reproduce. The functions actually make sense and anecdotally seem to correspond to something in the real world (they've rarely if ever been subject to scientific testing as far as I'm aware). The preferences by the…

They are similar since they correlate similarly with lots of real world aspects. E.G. most simple is they are both very actively represented on Reddit and second one being top 2 highest average IQs. They also share very many similar interests.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#212

I don't know how/why people defend this test. 1. It's inaccurate. And that's not just "technically true", it's very rare that the test reproduces results. 2. Jung's theories (the ones used in the test) aren't just "controversial". They're wrong. He says it himself, in the same document they used to create the test. It is just a cash cow now. The _biggest_ problem with the test is it is harmful, not helpful. People be…

Do you have a link where Jung said his theories are wrong?

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#213
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not particularly having a horse in this race, if a theory can't reliably make useful predictions, it's not a very useful theory. There's certainly something to be said about identifying correlations, but it isn't yet clear to me whether we can draw inferences based on those correlations to make useful predictions. In the SSC example, I wouldn't be especially shocked if there are no useful inferences in either directi…

There are tons of correlations, for example INTP/INTJ subreddits on Reddit being most popular while these types generally are one of the rarest. There's tons of things you can predict with this. INTPs are often going to face similar challenges and obstacles in life, there's similar things that will help them grow as a person that would not help other types.

I don't think subreddit popularity can really mean much here because:

- Redditors like to posture as intellectuals more discerning than the plebe down below, so they're more likely to engage with these personality types than others that would be considered lesser. In other words somebody being given an INTJ profile is more likely to circlejerk about it and making it part of his personality on the website.

- These tests are overwhelmingly self-administered and extremely easy to manipulate to get the result that you want. And even if you don't, you can still lie about it if you feel like you're a super smart rational non emotional 20-something dude.

Like I just went to the INTJ subreddit and the first post I see starts with:

> What drives me crazy the most is when you’re able to notice patterns in almost every aspect of life either it’s video games, schooling, human mannerisms, etc. What drives me crazy is when people say “oh my god you’re so smart, you should be a doctor, you should be a psychologist, you should work for whatever company device you enjoy using”.

Ah yes, cursed by his own intelligence he wanders on the plains of despair, unable to engage with lesser pleasures. tips fedora.

This tribal aspect of these personality profile are really what I dislike the most about them. If at least people used these things for self-improvement instead of just justifying their bad behaviour. "No I'm not being a dick, I'm just an INTP mom".

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#214
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing in the field of psychology with better support than IQ. If you aren't going to accept IQ, then you've entirely tossed out the field of psychology. There is nothing left. Huh. That's quite a bold and incorrect claim. Are you a psychologist?

Let's hear it from a psychologist: "If you don’t buy IQ research, you might as well throw out all the rest of psychology." (Jordan Peterson) https://youtu.be/D7Kn5p7TP_Y?t=2938 For anybody interested in personality research, I warmly recommend this lecture series, by the way. These are the basics, which psychology students learn at university.

Peterson is a jungian hack

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#215
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about personality models seems to appeal to INTJs and INTPs more than anyone else. Never hearing about other types probably says something about your social circles too.

Are all psychometricians INTx's, then? This sounds like exactly the kind of over-conclusion that bothers people about personality testing and its applications. ;-)

Of course not. It's all probabilistic. I feel like the people who think MBTI and personality tests don't make sense are themselves the ones making those over conclusions and they can only think in binary, black and white way, when it really could be something like INTx is likely to be overrepresented in psychometricians fields by 4x, ESFJ might be underrepresented by 5x, etc.

So for instance maybe there's 6% INTXs in the world, but in psychometry field there happens to be 30% INTX representation. Nobody is making the claim that ALL psy

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#216

I've never really understood the harsh criticisms of MBTI. It's not super predictive, but not to be honest, nothing else in psychology is either; the whole field is just not anywhere near the level of physics or chemistry (not to blame the researchers; predicting humans is very hard). The big 5 and I think more recently an 18 dimensional breakdown (using PCA or ICA?) just aren't that much better than MBTI, despite ma…

Yeah, horoscopes are fun. I used to mess with my school by shuffling the horoscopes in the weekly newsletter. No one noticed or complained.

The purpose of horoscopes is to keep people from doing the same thing every day. It doesn't matter which sign you check, or even if you check the same one each time.

So, scrambling them did not interfere with what people used them for. There was no reason for anyone to complain. The astro-BS just randomizes assignments, so everybody doesn't all get the same advice at the same time.

You have spent years feeling smug, but the joke was on you all along.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#217
post #100

I took the MBTI in my early twenties, then forgot about it. I got into the much more scientific big-5 to understand different types of personalities, and in order to flesh out the possible ranges of behaviors in my mind. Then 10 years later I find myself going back to the MBTI. Why? Because I now understand it as a gateway to Jung ideas, which I find helpful during my current period of professional questionning. Acor…

> I now understand it as a gateway to Jung ideas, which I find helpful during my current period of professional questionning. Jung's ideas are quite attractive, I'll give you that. We all love a good story, especially if feels so full of meaning. That being said, I would point out that there are stories and good research that might be a lot more helpful. I would suggest: Chris Argyris work on management, especially h…

Hi pdamoc!

First of all I want to thank you for sharing modern authors. I was aware of Carol Dweck's older theories and Toyota management model. I do plan to learn from your suggestions. Have they been helpful in your career?

One of the fist thing I've noticed after I started Zen meditation training 5 years ago was that I had recurrent daydreams about killing my bosses. I switched position 3 times until I found myself in a toxic startup where I've burned out. I met a psycologist specialized in work related issues (very good with modern models) and it was helpful. I've learned how to manage my anxiety and to trust my self better.

I'm not certain that I would qualify Jung's ideas as 'attractive'. I understand what you mean by 'a good story', but my take on his work is that its a pre-scientific tool to look deeply into yourself. If it's not scary, your are not using it right. (A bit like zen meditation).

Right now I work as an IT consultant in a byzantine public organisation where failure is normalized or hidden. Knowing that I will not spend my life there makes it easy to cope with the day to day absurdity, and cashing that paycheck is nice during COVID. But the thing is, I dont care about money. According to FIRE metrics, I save over 50% of my income after tax. I have no kids and no responsabilities beyond myself.

Instead of bitching about corporate-employee life, I think I should move out of it. Why not go back to school and do a Phd (already Msc), start or join a meaningful startup? Also recently I made a list of professional achievements which make me proud and turned it into a presentation letter, and found potential employers based on that letter. I have an interview in another industry next week.

I have no problem with the scientific method. The thing is, your own life cannot be a randomized controlled trial. And unfortunalty, if you are suffering from strong emotional biases (like anxiety), trying to use a new model might not work because your will be biased in its usage. Learning from science is not sufficient to lead a meaningful life. Good relationships will also help you alot in your self reflexion challenges. Lastly, I think that learning to use your intuition is probably the best tool you have to work against a disfunctional self model, since by nature intuition is non-verbal and anti-model in the first place.

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#218
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have good points there. From reading the article, the inaccuracy is by inappropriately classifying people into groups, and the groupings lack sensitivity. As you also point out the underlying theoretical framework is also wrong. The article does point out that the Myers Briggs does correlate reasonably well with four of the big 5 though. Having said that I would definitely discourage use of the Myers-Briggs. The…

So IQ measures something, but we don't know what and we don't know how it impacts the real world. How can we meaningfully say it measures something then?

The main issue is we know IQ is meaningfully correlated with real world outcomes, but also that real world environments are meaningfully correlated with ranges of (non-normalised) IQ in a way we can't adequately explain or replicate. It's less obviously correlated with prior knowledge than most tests, but still very trainable (especially if you're a neural network with no generalised reasoning ability whatsoever...)

And like all types of performance test the "something" it measures is a vector of pattern matching ability (both the component generalisable to solving more difficult problems and the component that doesn't except in the domain of career-relevant tests) but also other things obviously correlated with future performance but not fitting most people's definition of intelligence (attitude towards test, comfort in guessing, time management in timed tests, and to a degree experience), so whilst we know what the scale of the apparent impact is, we don't know really know what's behind the cause

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#219

For some reason, Myers-Briggs has gotten all of the publicity (all those high priced management consultants, I guess). I have found the Enneagram [0] to be just as useful (all the controversy about accuracy aside). It is a different flavor of a personality test and the spiritual growth connotations of it makes 'real' scientists discount it. But I think it provides useful info when you ignore all the surface level sup…

I did an Enneagram last week. I'm doing a part-time MSc at the moment, and the last 2 weeks has been talking about these types of tests. I'm certainly on the "cynical" side in any test.

My Enneagram result was even in 4 of the 9 boxes. Wonderful.

With all these tests, it seems that many people think the categorisation is what matters, rather than what you do with the information. You could use them as an icebreaker on a teambuilding day I guess, but then you could probably use a 'what hogwarts house are you' or 'what game of thrones character are you' test from buzzfeed.

Maybe it's useful to create fictional characters of D&D backstories.

I can see that if you have an idea of the type of person you have on a team, you might know how to help them, and an idea of personality traits they may have could help -- if you're an introvert that likes time alone to recharge, knowing that some people are weird and like to recharge with other people may help, but then you're just as likely to get it wrong anyway - for example thinking "I won't invite X to the pub because they're an introvert that doesn't like being around people"

Re: In Defense of Myers Briggs (2020)

#220
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can bin people in any number of arbitrary ways. Just the fact you can bin people does not make the binning usefull. Meyers-Squid is equally valid as any other fiction driven binning process. Like dividing people into Hogswarts houses. Stability alone is useless if the predictive qualities do not extend beyond the binning process. Being INTJ only predicts the next time you do the test (if the scoring is stable) yo…

Are you really saying that testing as intj (for example) doesn't correlate with anything? Because that seems incredibly unlikely. E.g. three years ago Slate Star Codex readers were surveyed and found to be 10 times more likely to be INTJ/INTP than the general population.

Statistically it would be very surprising if Meyers-Briggs score would not have correlations with some other samplings - but that does not make it any more relevant. The fact that you can bin answers does not make your questionnaire in any way relevant unless you have some theory how the binned statistic can be used outside of the scoring process. Meyers-Briggs is all about the scoring, and has no usable theory how that scoring could be used.

A correlation alone does not mean it "means anything". Accidental correlations are quite common. We also notice them really well and tend to give them more meaning beyond them being random events.

Picking only positive correlations from an arbitrary data set is also known as p-hacking - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_dredging

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