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Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

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Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#211

Post by aksss »

carlmr wrote: post #113
indymike wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the requirements should be as simple as implement the law.

Implementing the law, especially in a common law country like the US is really difficult. The case law that is of primary importance here is often contradictory and fuzzy, as well as changing constantly. In addition the written law doesn't capture the whole situation. In a civil law system it's more likely achievable, but I'm quite sure the requirements aren't that clear cut judging from the text.

Well, there’s the law (federal, state, etc), then the additional regulatory rulings (federal, state, etc), then the as-applied department policies. Not really a lack of “law” but a mess of constraints that need to be deciphered into functional requirements with footnotes, matrixed to testing and preserved/maintained for the next guy. Ugh.. I want to charge the gov. 2k hrs for just thinking about it today.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#212

Post by extropy »

RHSeeger wrote: post #142
dimitrios1 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know exactly how to fix it. Our cowardly politicians and toothless regulatory agencies are not up for the challenge. For every piece of software that can directly and materially harm someone's life like this, there should be a chain of responsibility. And within that chain, there should be legal recourse and, in most cases, penal consequences, especially in the case of inadequate software quality/testing/validatio…

It will never be the case that software will be perfect. We can get closer and closer, but the closer we are the more expensive the next step in closing the gap is. While I do agree that making software better/more reliable is a good goal, I believe we would be better off making the system as a whole more robust; the system that includes humans. For every situation where a piece of software has control of something t…

There is no such thing as perfect software when requirements change with time. We need adaptable software instead.

Like all our governance mechanisms have a built-in system of constant change.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#213

Post by throwaway8581 »

carlmr wrote: post #113
indymike wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the requirements should be as simple as implement the law.

Implementing the law, especially in a common law country like the US is really difficult. The case law that is of primary importance here is often contradictory and fuzzy, as well as changing constantly. In addition the written law doesn't capture the whole situation. In a civil law system it's more likely achievable, but I'm quite sure the requirements aren't that clear cut judging from the text.

Civil law codes are often just as ambiguous as common law systems. The only difference is that in a civil law system, you can’t firmly rely on precedent, so a judge can interpret the law against you just because he doesn’t like you, even in the face of contrary precedent.

That’s in part why international business to business contracts almost always specify a common law jurisdiction as the required venue for any lawsuits.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#214

Post by P_I_Staker »

hkh28 wrote: post #29
atty wrote: post #10

The fact that they appear to have identified individuals who should be released, but have not, due to the software not being updated, is frankly disgusting. I believe holding a person against their will is a criminal act - seems like most of the employees of the Arizona correctional facilities are now guilty of crimes worse than the majority of their inmates.

As an outside observer (European) this seems to be the way the American prison system is run. The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions. Fixing such an issue should be top priority, and in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

It depends what we're talking about. On paper our system isn't so different. Prisoners are people that have been found to transgress so many rights are forfeited, but not all of them. We send them to correction centers to get better. They leave and rights are restored.

The issue is that many of the people involved feel differently in their hearts, and see the rehabilitative side as a bunch of feel good nonsense. It's never gonna work, or isn't worth paying for. More to the point we're chronically unwilling to put any resources towards these goals. It's all about being seen ensuring public safety and making sure no one gets a handout.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#215

Post by mewpmewp2 »

km3r wrote: post #180
jacob2484 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And just would pay this? You and I the taxpayers.... so no thanks to this solution.

And yet, the software may save more than a million dollars in admin costs. And as soon as the most of the bug are worked out, it can operate less of those payouts. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

I don't understand how people here fail to see that completely. Traffic accidents also happen, doesn't mean we should abolish vehicles or allow only slow moving armored vehicles on the road.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#216

Post by frompdx »

hodgesrm wrote: post #205
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

> It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. You are attacking the wrong target. It's the government that's broken. This kind of outrage can happen just as easily with pencil and paper. The root cause is the lack of accountability and desire to make the government functio…

Except software allows a scale and efficiency that is impossible with pencil and paper while also creating an ideal scapegoat. Software is being used to avoid accountability at a scale much greater than what was possible with manual process.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#217

Post by alephnil »

frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

Yes, software can be used as a cover for abuse like in this case, but that happens because some people in power let it happen. For other pieces of software that have consequences for people with more power than prisoners, the society will not allow failures to happen. I only need to mention the MCAS software of Boeing 737 Max for a counterexample.

Software does not have its own will. Software is only allowed to make decisions on our behalf because we let it do so.

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#218

Post by distribot »

edbob wrote: post #133
hkh28 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outside observer (European) this seems to be the way the American prison system is run. The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions. Fixing such an issue should be top priority, and in the meantime, you would revert to pen and paper accounting to ensure the correct release of each prisoner.

> The inmates are not viewed as humans by the people responsible, enabling horrible conditions. This was not my experience as an inmate in Texas. Actually, we are referred to as "offenders" [0] because the terms "inmate" and "convict" are considered offensive. Staff can get in trouble for using a pejorative word like "inmate". (Not that they never do because quite honestly I don't know anyone that actually finds the…

> This was not my experience as an inmate in Texas.

Where did you do your time? Because 70% of Texas inmates are housed in facilities without A/C. Concrete structures that get up to 105 degrees. Inmate accounts of this are truly horrific.

The state spent 7 million fighting against having to fix this, potentially (according to plaintiffs) more than the cost of fixing it. So the state is so dedicated to horrible conditions that they spent more money to fight than it would have cost to fix them. Litigation has been going on for years, and the state authorities are still dragging their feet.

This is just one example of the way the carceral system dehumanizes people. I'm sure youre familiar with Nutraloaf.

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/07/26/texas-prison-heat-ai...

Re: Whistleblowers: Software keeping inmates in Arizona prisons beyond release dates

#220

Post by Tepix »

hodgesrm wrote: post #205
frompdx wrote: post #20

This is an outrage. It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. Somehow software has become the ultimate vehicle for bureaucratic violence. Software is simultaneously infallible and the perfect scapegoat. The inmate who lost their phone privileges for 30 days is an example…

> It is also a perfect example of how software is used to create increasingly more elaborate and faceless bureaucracies that force individuals to spend more and more time contending with them. You are attacking the wrong target. It's the government that's broken. This kind of outrage can happen just as easily with pencil and paper. The root cause is the lack of accountability and desire to make the government functio…

Corporations have similar issues. Just look at the biased image recognition technology that FAANG release
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