Margaret Mitchell fired from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#211

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #62

I’ve been wondering how sincere the Silicon Valley corporate mantra of Be yourself, Be authentic, be open to management really was. There was so much idealism even on Hacker news. Nowadays I witness the strange contradiction of people bashing giant tech companies while mostly discussing how to found the next giant tech company. A lot of us did genuinely believe it. However as the companies grew and became mega corps…

For me at least, it really was sincere, but in retrospect I was terribly naive about the shared cultural context required to make it work. My idea of "be authentic, be yourself" just didn't include a lot of people who authentically disagree with me on what a good working environment is like.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#212

Post by threevox » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

sillysaurusx wrote: post #94

It's pretty important to get this story straight: She moved files when she wasn't supposed to. This seems like a pretty standard firing. People are already claiming on twitter that Google is assaulting ethical AI, and I just don't see it. Google did not immediately comment on those claims. Its statement said of Mitchell: “We confirmed that there were multiple violations of our code of conduct, as well as of our secur…

Also, she seemed like a toxic AF person

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#213

Post by whatever1 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:29 AM UTC

Booktrope wrote: post #181

leetcrew wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would a company pay someone to publicly criticize them? in the case of google, there's already plenty of people willing to do that for free.

Yeah, why wouldn't a company want a workforce full of yes-men and engineers who care about nothing but making shareholders money and making executives look good?

KODAK

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#214

Post by threevox » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:29 AM UTC

As with Covid, yet another instance of "ethicists" being actually highly unethical people

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#215

Post by Wolfenstein98k » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:30 AM UTC

zhengyi13 wrote: post #196

MattGaiser wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak up internally, sure. Externally?

Speaking up internally is pretty clearly ineffective, and has been since at least the days of the Real Names debacle.

Most activism isn't successful. You would find your way to violence very quickly if a few examples of unsuccessful non-violent activism caused you to justify breaking more and more serious laws each time.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#216

Post by KhitanMaps » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:30 AM UTC

choppaface wrote: post #164

Dr. Gebru was fired for having consulted a lawyer. (Jeff Dean and others were aware that Dr. Gebru was consulting a lawyer long before her termination). Employers can do stupid things, but not illegal things, and it's beyond stupid to fire somebody for talking to an attorney. Google felt threatened and so they acted, fair and simple. While it's OK to feel threatened, it's not OK to retaliate, which is what Google, le…

> Dr. Gebru was fired for having consulted a lawyer.

How do you know this?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#217

Post by pseudalopex » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:31 AM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #154

"Google fires another AI ethics leader." Somewhat loaded title, as it implies a previous one was fired, which was not at all established as the case.

Firing someone who gave notice is still firing in California.[1] And Gebru didn't even give notice. She proposed discussing a resignation date.

[1] https://www.edd.ca.gov/uibdg/Voluntary_Quit_VQ_135.htm

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#218

Post by mcherm » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

duckfang wrote: post #123

sillysaurusx wrote: post #94

It's pretty important to get this story straight: She moved files when she wasn't supposed to. This seems like a pretty standard firing. People are already claiming on twitter that Google is assaulting ethical AI, and I just don't see it. Google did not immediately comment on those claims. Its statement said of Mitchell: “We confirmed that there were multiple violations of our code of conduct, as well as of our secur…

> She moved files when she wasn't supposed to. According to Google. Remember, an entity that has a reason and a justification to do what it wants will manufacture whatever evidence it needs to do that. And, it's not a court of law. At best, it's "allegedly moved files when they weren't supposed to".

> And, it's not a court of law. At best, it's "allegedly moved files when they weren't supposed to".

Are you operating under the assumption that nothing should ever be stated as a fact unless determined by a court of law? Because that's not how I think of things.

(I do agree that Google is a biased actor here. If I hear that Margaret Mitchell disputes moving files in contravention of company policy I will give her the benefit of the doubt. But my default assumption will be that everyone is telling the truth about basic facts.)

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#219

Post by anon_tor_12345 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

izacus wrote: post #150

rmk wrote: post #4

For people who are familiar with this, I have a question. How does research in an industrial lab vs. a university work, insofar as independence is concerned? In a university, aside from well-defined ethics guidelines for conducting research (e.g., involving animal or human subjects), staff are generally free to publish the findings of their research at any venue they see fit. Many are tenured professors, so they also…

> In a university, aside from well-defined ethics guidelines for conducting research (e.g., involving animal or human subjects), staff are generally free to publish the findings of their research at any venue they see fit. I'm not sure what university were you at where that was true - academia is horribly political (in many ways more than corporations in some ways less) and until you get tenure your job is to put up…

>Your career is dependant on good recommendation letters and goodwill of quality advisors

life pro tip: for any paper with more than 2 authors, the last author is the most senior and did the least amount of work (if any). i leave it to you to conjecture about quid pro quo.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#220

Post by xiphias2 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

buildbot wrote: post #131

It’s a really common refrain here that if you are employee critical of your employer you should expect to get fired… Well perhaps, but you’d think that specifically someone in AI ethics needs to be empowered to speak up against both internal external issues. Or did google just want an research ethics hit team against other companies technologies? Makes me wonder if project zero is really trying as hard as possible wi…

It's not just the employer. James' Damore's memo silenced a lot of the more conservative thinkers, especially as he didn't even want that memo to be public, just a research on a mailing list. Harassment from the political left was very strong at Google, that it was just a matter of time until it bit back.

As for me as a white man although I was just doing my job silently, I didn't feel appreciated and tried to isolate myself from meetings / politics and just focus on work (and was happy to leave 1 year after that memo). The fun old times when we could just focus on making the user happy and talk about doing cool stuff was over.