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Always Bet on Text (2014)

graydon2.dreamwidth.org

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Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#211
post #176

The article is historically wrong. The oldest known cave murals etc. are 44000 years old [1], while cuneiform, heiroglyphics, Sumerian, Mesopotamian etc. are only about 3000-4000 years old [2]. A strange beautiful example of complex information presented visually which was in use until recently, are the Polynesian navigation charts [3]. Our primary method of communcation is probably visual and/or auditory. The promin…

How much exact meaning can you infer from the murals?

Text is using the visual channel to transmit what language can convey, and language can convey generally almost everything we try express (likely more accurately and succinctly than drawings, gestures or other sounds).

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#212
I’m so glad this post is still around. I cite it a lot when discussing creative tools with people who think that visual is the only way to go.

Obviously the best computer tools offer both visual and textual ways of working. But if you have to pick one, bet on text.

I was about to add a caveat about pure visual tasks, like image composition, but advances like DALL-E are starting to put those tasks into question as well. If I were making a photo editor today, I would bet on text.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: history. I agree on the power of text as a technology, and the role it played. China & the Roman Republic/Empire are good examples of this. But.... I think it's worth remembering that we lost something as we gained something. We tend to severely underestimate oral "technologies." Scholarship existed before writing. History, geography, etc. Text spent centuries or millennia as a peripheral media. It was mostly use…

> We tend to severely underestimate oral "technologies." Scholarship existed before writing. This comes up a lot in Bible scholarship. Many modern people assume the words of Jesus, for example, were lost to a game of telephone before being written down years later in the form we have today. But conveying the teachers words with true fidelity to what he said was very important to a rabbi's students, and they had a cul…

I agree on the principle, but not the example :)

Year 0 in Judea (and Rome, Damascus...) was a pretty literate period and literacy was (the story of jesus confirms) already a religious requirement... bar mitzva or an ancestor of that custom. Bar mitzva translates roughly to "eligible to uphold commandments." You need to read for that, or so the custom implies.

I'm sure that most of the religious/rabbinical tradition was still oral, and that rabbis did a lot of oral teaching. But, I think high fidelity oral "technology" was already heavily diluted, especially in judaic culture. Scriptural worship starts very early. It's hard to say when exactly, but it had to have happened while hebrew/canaanite was still spoken in the region. Aramaic had overtaken hebrew circa 400-500 BC. From that point, high fidelity transmission was done with writing.

Also, the multicultural/multilingual/multiregional context makes it unlikely that a high fidelity oral tradition existed in early christianity. IMO, the new testament was almost certainly compiled from earlier written sources... and oral telephone. I mean, the new testament isn't even in the same language as the sermons.

The same can be said about mishnah/talmud... the jewish contemporary to the new testament. Traditionally, it is seen as a compilation of jewish oral traditions, received at mount sinai and maintained with fidelity for two thousand years. Realistically, there were earlier written versions of (eg) Rabbi Hillel's teachings available to the scribes who compiled the Mishnah.

The traditional reasoning for writing the "oral torah" (resulting in talmud/mishna) was that oral traditions were dying, and that writing was necessary for fidelity. Multiregionalism, multilingualism and such were to blame... and the christians would have had even more of those problems. Fewer, more dispersed. No institutions. No common language. No old traditions. It's possible that there was a tradition of reciting Jesus' sermons, but that would be kind of culturally out of place. I think it's pretty unlikely. If there was, I think the new testament would have been compiled in aramaic.

Also... there are quite a few convergences between new testament stories and other (broadly termed) rabbinical accounts from the period. John the Baptist has his own religion, for example, and in their books you get some of the same stories, but with John in the Jesus role. I suspect there were many others, but have no modern adherents.

Judaism of that period aggressively trimmed out any new or recent "revelatory" writings. New prophets, new conversations directly with god. That's what many of the "apocrypha" are. From then on, religious scripture needed to be wisdom received from oral traditions, old sages and stuff. No revelation.

These, to me, strongly suggests late 2nd temple judaism was no better at oral tradition than us. That said, you can have conceptual fidelity without having word-by-word fidelity. When Jesus paraphrased Hillel, he was reaching across 400 years of oral (probably/mostly) tradition. Christians doing the same thing 200 years later probably had that level of fidelity.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Twitter logo in SVG format is only 687 bytes and can be as large as you like: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Twitter_bird_...

SVG is XML, which I'd say counts as text.

I don't think it counts for the purposes of this blog post.

You can't translate the Wikipedia quote in the article into an SVG except by just rendering the bare text.

Checking programmatically that text is about "bird" or "Twitter" is very easy. Checking that an SVG is about "bird" or "Twitter" is very hard.

It's not even efficient. It conveys the same message as the word "Twitter" in a hundred times the size. And it wouldn't be less efficient if it were a binary format.

It's maybe more suitable for carving into granite than a binary format, but you'd be better off carving the logo itself.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. A lot of people record voice messages, but they need to be in an environment providing enough privacy. But messengers emphasize text heavily in their UIs - again because of keyboards. Keyboard less touch devices are too novel an innovation compared to when instant messaging was cast into its final form.

> but they need to be in an environment providing enough privacy. Yet another argument in favor of text.

Just an argument against audio and video. With a stylus instead of a keyboard you can still scribble amd draw naturally. That was my original example.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#216
post #14

Agreed, with a counterpoint: Text is efficient at transmitting data. If I want to describe a concept or an event, text is king. However, media is more efficient at transmitting sentiment. It will take you far more than 4000 bytes of text to transmit the feeling or emotion an icon can convey, when used well. This is why we've (as a species) started using emojis, and why media leans to emotion and sentiment while text…

“Text is efficient at transmitting data. If I want to describe a concept or an event, text is king.”

Really? Why are video games so visual, in that case? To update you on the situation your character is in, inform you where the enemies are, give you feedback on your current health and objectives... most video games use a rich graphical system of colors and symbols overlaid over a high resolution image of the game world...

If text is more efficient at communicating ‘events’, why aren’t there ‘action text adventures’?

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The post states that the used Twitter logo PNG is 4000 bytes, while it's only 723. The article was written in 2014. Worth remembering when nitpicking the text of an article.

Do PNG files reduce in size over time?

I don't know, but if they do, they seem to have a half-life of about 2.431184 years. That's interesting news.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, svg is text. The jpg/png icon will pixelate when zoomed, but svg will retain its quality no matter how much you zoom in... :)

> svg is text Actually I thought about talking about SVG, which would be the natural result of taking a text representation of shapes ... and then use abbreviations until you are at some expert level language (SVG for example), which would then break the argument again. You might as well use some binary representation then, because most people don't speak fluent SVG.

Most people don't speak fluid tok pisin either; does that make it less of a language?

Also, you'd be surprised by the amount of people that write SVG by hand, which I doubt you'll see with PNG anytime soon.

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#219
post #14

Agreed, with a counterpoint: Text is efficient at transmitting data. If I want to describe a concept or an event, text is king. However, media is more efficient at transmitting sentiment. It will take you far more than 4000 bytes of text to transmit the feeling or emotion an icon can convey, when used well. This is why we've (as a species) started using emojis, and why media leans to emotion and sentiment while text…

Hot take: emojis are a type of text, for this very reason. The entire unicode standard is what humanity has settled on as "text".

Re: Always Bet on Text (2014)

#220
Concerns about 3D multimedia spaces replacing text makes as much sense as worrying about parchment, paper, or rectangle screens replacing text. Virtualized spaces are, much like those others, merely a transmission medium for text (and other media.) As immersive computing arrives (you may not think it is, but I assure you, it is) we will be refactoring a lot of these existing rectangle screens and other contexts where text is projected via physical processes into virtualized ones.

This is why in my 3D virtual space for work, Jel, fully collaborative text panels (synchronized via OT) are the primary kind of element you create: https://jel.app.

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