Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Kotlin Foundation

kotlinlang.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 236 posts

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#211

Post by pmlopes »

ofrzeta wrote: post #147
brabel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java developers are spoiled for choice. There's everything, from the simplest possible https://sparkjava.com/ , to the a little bit nicer https://javalin.io/ (which has a Kotlin wrapper), to the high performance and full framework https://vertx.io/ (which always had great multi-lingual support within the JVM), to the newer and GraalVM-friendly https://micronaut.io/ and https://quarkus.io/ ... for the Enterprise-only…

vert.x has unfortunately reduced the support of JVM languages to Java, Kotlin and Groovy. No longer any Scala support, also no support of Javascript.

JavaScript's support has been moved to the reactiverse project. It's an incubation like project for projects that aren't fully 1.0.0 yet. In there you will find https://reactiverse.io/es4x/, the EcmaScript support For Vert.x. It's a new approach of using vert.x with GraalVM to provide modern ES language features such as ES12, instead of the old Nashorn ES5.1.

It also changes the development workflow from a maven-based project to a NPM-based project which should be more familiar to JavaScript developers.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#212

Post by pmlopes »

ofrzeta wrote: post #147
brabel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java developers are spoiled for choice. There's everything, from the simplest possible https://sparkjava.com/ , to the a little bit nicer https://javalin.io/ (which has a Kotlin wrapper), to the high performance and full framework https://vertx.io/ (which always had great multi-lingual support within the JVM), to the newer and GraalVM-friendly https://micronaut.io/ and https://quarkus.io/ ... for the Enterprise-only…

vert.x has unfortunately reduced the support of JVM languages to Java, Kotlin and Groovy. No longer any Scala support, also no support of Javascript.

Scala support is still being finished, however the project team decide to go ahead releasing 4.0.0 at the beginning of the year avoiding the block until the Scala support work was complete. You can follow its development on GitHub or the official Discord server.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#213

Post by pjmlp »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #207
pjmlp wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea? Missing the news? Google lets Android Java stagnate on purpose on Java 8 subset, with cherry picked APIs from newer OpenJDK versions, uses this language subset to sell Kotlin features over Java features on code samples comparisasions. Nowadays, all Android developer channels, regardless on which form, are all inundated with Kotlin material and how great it is over "Java" (actually Android Java). As…

The JVM is just a detail, as a language designer, an utterly boring one. Who cares if your language is running on that or via native compilation. In fact, after seeing what happened at Microsoft with UwP, I’ll take convenience over ahead of time compilation any day. I also find language politics to be incredibly boring. Maybe you have a point, but I just want to write code in a language that isn’t 10 years out of dat…

Languages without platforms fade away, history is full of examples.

For better or worse, Kotlin designers have decided to make a deal with Android for turning it into Kotlin's plaform, and they definitely do not care what happens with the JVM.

Kotlin designers will eventually, like everyone else, find out that one cannot stand on both sides when things start heating up.

Then there is the whole matter of ChromeOS vs Android vs Fuchsia of Google's internal politics, and Kotlin is only relevant in one of them.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#214

Post by [deleted] »

pjmlp wrote: post #100
jorgemf wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say so? I do think kotlin isnt only aiming to the Java Virtual Machine, it is mucho more.

Life experience of seeing guest languages come and go, during the last 30 years, and never succeeding in the goal to replace platform languages. On the contrary, platform languages slowly acquire the relevant features of the shiny languages, which eventually either fade away or find a niche for survival. Kotlin will be relevant as long as Android exists, that is all.

[deleted]

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#215

Post by fulafel »

pjmlp wrote: post #100
jorgemf wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say so? I do think kotlin isnt only aiming to the Java Virtual Machine, it is mucho more.

Life experience of seeing guest languages come and go, during the last 30 years, and never succeeding in the goal to replace platform languages. On the contrary, platform languages slowly acquire the relevant features of the shiny languages, which eventually either fade away or find a niche for survival. Kotlin will be relevant as long as Android exists, that is all.

Entirely replacing estabilished languages doesn't really ever happen, it's just the nature of the game.

Server software for unixy systems used to be near universally written in C and it's still "the" platform language. And it can be certainly be said that alternative languages have come and gone.

But: C has become a niche.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#216

Post by dtech »

pjmlp wrote: post #204
brabel wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I work we use Groovy heavily for testing (with the Spock Framework - which is amazing), in our Jenkins pipelines, and for Gradle Plugins in our build. I see a pretty active community around it and lots of new releases (from the libraries and the language itself) coming up all the time. Your picture of Groovy being dead couldn't be more wrong in my experience.

A programming language is alive as long as there is one developer using it, doesn't mean it still matters at scale. As mentioned, Gradle is still around.

Gradle is moving more and more towards kotlin

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#217

Post by fulafel »

blandflakes wrote: post #197
tadfisher wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scala, Clojure, and Groovy are all mature languages that haven't gone anywhere. No one has a goal of replacing Java, and they all benefit from improvements to the JVM.

Of the JVM languages, AFAIK only Kotlin is making a serious push to get off the JVM using something like LLVM. Interesting idea, though I wonder how long they can preserve compatibility between JVM and native targets. Scala native doesn't feel like it has the same impact, perhaps in part due to a lack of momentum (as I perceive it).

Clojure exists outside the JVM as well (ClojureScript, Babashka, ClojureCLR)

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#218

Post by TulliusCicero »

pjmlp wrote: post #210
TulliusCicero wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin has already pretty much replaced Java for Android devs. I see it doing something similar to Java use more generally (albeit more slowly than it did with Android).

Of course it did, Google is making that decision a reality. On the JVM, Kotlin doesn't matter, it is just another language that pretends to be Java when compiled to Java Virtual Machine bytecode.

> Of course it did, Google is making that decision a reality.

It was already hyped up and rapidly gaining popularity for Android devs prior to Google endorsing it. That's why Google endorsed it.

> On the JVM, Kotlin doesn't matter, it is just another language that pretends to be Java when compiled to Java Virtual Machine bytecode.

I mean sure, but this applies to replacing Java elsewhere too.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#219

Post by pjmlp »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #218
pjmlp wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it did, Google is making that decision a reality. On the JVM, Kotlin doesn't matter, it is just another language that pretends to be Java when compiled to Java Virtual Machine bytecode.

> Of course it did, Google is making that decision a reality. It was already hyped up and rapidly gaining popularity for Android devs prior to Google endorsing it. That's why Google endorsed it. > On the JVM, Kotlin doesn't matter, it is just another language that pretends to be Java when compiled to Java Virtual Machine bytecode. I mean sure, but this applies to replacing Java elsewhere too.

Scala and XTend were being hyped the same way.

If Google wasn't playing dirty, they would have kept updating Android Java to be in line with Java, and let the developers choose.

Instead, they purposely stagnate Android Java on a Java 8 subset, let the Android marketing machine push Kotlin over Medium articles, Twitter blog posts, YouTube Android developers channel, Android developer blog posts, MAD training material.

And lets not forget the role of JetBrains, having had a role replacing Eclipse with InteliJ in what concerns Android Studio, now they even dropped support for Eclipse on their Kotlin support, as they are quite open that they want to use Kotlin to drive InteliJ license sales.

Kotlin is just another flavour of CoffeeScript in what concerns the JVM.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#220

Post by pjmlp »

dtech wrote: post #216
pjmlp wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A programming language is alive as long as there is one developer using it, doesn't mean it still matters at scale. As mentioned, Gradle is still around.

Gradle is moving more and more towards kotlin

A language that will share Groovy's fate, when Google gets fed up with Android and uses either ChromeOS or Fuchsia to take its place.
Post reply on HN