"170,000 lines of MATLAB code" (used as software to determine if humans are spending their lives in jail).
Well if that's not a line to make you feel awful on a Monday morning.
Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
211–220 of 520 posts
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#212How does this work? They only have to find 1 bug and the entire case is dropped / postponed?
I guess they have to show this bug changes the result.
But if you look at e.g. the case against Toyota where they had expert witnesses from Carnegie Melon and NASA testifying that the code was a horrible mess, I think that was sufficient for a multi billion dollar fine. So I guess with the admission from the DNA company that their code is basically unreviewable, written in a language known for prototyping, if they get an expert witness to testify this it may be enough without showing how the software misbehaves exactly.
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
People sometimes ask me what my “number” is, like how much net worth or “money” I want, what would I do with it I say “I want to be able to afford appeals court where my rights matter” Infinite appeals court! Most people plea out, cant make bail, dont have counsel buddy buddy with the judge enough to get you bail, and lose the ability to keep good counsel for more and more motions and appeals I want that, there is al…
Appeals? Only ~3% of people charged even go to trial, the rest plead out. Just giving everyone a substantive right to trial would amount to a revolution.
Yeah. But just giving myself that right first, forever.
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#214What is unfortunate is that it took going to appeal to force the judge to allow the code review at all. Without, at minimum, an independent review (and preferably open source code) the software and lab processes being used constitute an inscrutable "black box" process within which any judgment can be made, for any conceivable reason, with life-changing effects for the defendant (and for the victims of a crime if, for…
People sometimes ask me what my “number” is, like how much net worth or “money” I want, what would I do with it I say “I want to be able to afford appeals court where my rights matter” Infinite appeals court! Most people plea out, cant make bail, dont have counsel buddy buddy with the judge enough to get you bail, and lose the ability to keep good counsel for more and more motions and appeals I want that, there is al…
I have the same line of reasoning when people talk about having enough to feel secure. Even simple civil legal matters cost in the tens of thousands of dollars easy.
And the system works so that you’re either rich enough to be able to defend yourself and the money spent doesn’t affect you, you’re poor enough that you have nothing to lose, or you’re in the middle, busy trying to get from poor to rich, but you are vulnerable to losing it all because you don’t have enough to protect it, but you have enough that it’s worth for someone else to try and take it.
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#215All source code for important decisions should be open and be verified by different parties. Just as that for voting machines.
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not so sure we should be allowing challenges to expert witness, with no evidence. That sounds like a rich source of abuse of the system, like a big company filing thousands of briefs to delay a case. It's important for experts to use validated, tested equipment. That's clear. And by the sound of it that is happening (stories of how code was tested and found wanting confirm that; stories of double-blind testing).…
Grossly oversimplifying it, but it is what my lawyer uncles say, and is consistent with what I saw as a juror on a civil trial involving many topics I'm personally an expert in, expert witnesses are paid to lie on the stand. At the very least they are paid very very well (the amount they were paid was emphasized at the trial I was at) to state only the information consistent with what the person paying them wanted to…
> At the very least they are paid very very well... to state only the information consistent with what the person paying them wanted to them to say
Anecdotally, if you replace 'paid' with 'incentivized' my understanding is the same.
And here's a totally unrelated Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Baden
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#217How would a team of independent reviewers even go about examining source code of this scale? How can you possibly find bugs that aren't super obvious?
The defense team only needs to provide the jury with a reasonable doubt. They don’t have to prove that it’s entirely wrong, only the existence of mistakes that call into question the overall accuracy. The founder has already made their argument for them by claiming that the entire codebase is impossible to review. “since a complete review is not possible, we reviewed a sample of x files and found y errors in the code. It is obvious that the developers has not adhered to the strict software code quality review standards that are necessary when dealing with life and death situations.”
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#218We had a case in the uk with accounting software. Dozens of people were convicted over decades because the software couldn't be wrong. Until eventually someone actually checked.
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not so sure we should be allowing challenges to expert witness, with no evidence. That sounds like a rich source of abuse of the system, like a big company filing thousands of briefs to delay a case. It's important for experts to use validated, tested equipment. That's clear. And by the sound of it that is happening (stories of how code was tested and found wanting confirm that; stories of double-blind testing).…
Grossly oversimplifying it, but it is what my lawyer uncles say, and is consistent with what I saw as a juror on a civil trial involving many topics I'm personally an expert in, expert witnesses are paid to lie on the stand. At the very least they are paid very very well (the amount they were paid was emphasized at the trial I was at) to state only the information consistent with what the person paying them wanted to…
They answer any question put to them. The defense has to ask the right questions of course.
I know expert witnesses. They are of impeccable character, and will seek to educate as well as they are allowed.
Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
People keep saying that but electronic voting would be great! Set it up so the process is exactly like mail-in ballots except digital and you can’t have made it any worse. It’s not like emailing a PDF to be opened by an election official is any different than mailing a document to be opened by that same official.
How many Nigerian princes have asked for your bank account number via physical mail? How about via email? The internet lowers the barrier to certain forms of abuse substantially enough that I don't think you can so easily say you won't have made it any worse.
I mean none because Gmail's spam filters are pretty good these days but I take your point. I'm not at all saying people should be trained to vote via unsolicited email. You would have to ask for digital voting when you register. And you would of course be able to check that your ballot was received through the same online form that already exists for mail-in ballots.
Right now you already give election officials your email for mail-in ballots and if there's a problem with your ballot they'll email you!
I think we could do a lot better than this when it comes to online voting but as a baseline optionally replacing the transport from physical mail to email I don't think would be the end of the world.