Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption • Hacker News Board

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#211

Post by headmelted » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #206

davmar wrote: post #198

a year ago I bought a used 2016 nissan leaf for driving around town for 11k. it's the best car i've ever owned. the design is ugly, the generic silver is hideous, but i'm so emotionally attached to it. i don't drive my really nice (and newer) VW GTI anymore. if you're thinking of getting an EV, you don't have to buy a tesla. the used leafs are just brilliant.

There is a reason that used Leafs are cheaper - the range is reduced due to poor design around thermal management for the battery (no active cooling) so the battery life degrades quickly. Newer (2018+) Leafs fixed this, but if you plan on buying used - make sure the range is confirmed. All that said, I have a cheap EV (2017 Focus) and it's a blast to drive - not a Tesla but still a sleeper.

Worth mentioning that they upgraded the packs in 2013/2014 to be more resistant to hotter climates, but in colder parts of the world the range degradation seen in hotter places didn’t happen anyway.

When I bought mine it had been through something like 900 rapid charge cycles (the Nissan battery report scored it 0/5 which was helpful for getting the price down). Even now years later it’s capacity is about 80-85% of new.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#212

Post by athms » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #146

fiftyfifty wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy, we have to get away from thinking of charging stations like gas pumps. Charging stations can be everywhere: grocery stores, retail stores, office buildings, malls, just about any parking lot or parking garage, hotels, airport parking and on and on. Gas pumps have to have huge underground tanks, and they have to be regularly refilled by large tanker trucks, by their very nature they will be…

Yeah, every parking spot could be a simple charging station. All you need is a power cable. Reusing the land of all gas stations for other things will be a good benefit of all this. Except for San Francisco, where they all will be preserved as historical landmarks.

There will be gas stations for generations to come. If California can meet its sales ban for new ICE cars in 2035, which is a tall order, ICE cars will still be on the road. Contributing to this trend will be people keeping their cars for years; used cars which represent two thirds of car sales; and cars driven into California from other states. As an example, I have a 2007 Honda and it will be on the road until it falls apart or I die.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#213

Post by ddulaney » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:45 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #203

Can someone who knows more about the subject that I do comment on the statement "electric powered vehicles are coal powered vehicles?" I'm seeing that in conservative circles.

At least in the US, that statement was much more true 20 years ago than it is today [0]. Today, swapping “natural gas” out for coal is more accurate. There are three big points to consider:

- Overall, the (US) electricity mix is lower-emitting than gasoline.

- The US electricity mix is trending greener. (Gasoline cars are also getting more efficient, but many of those changes also apply to electric cars)

- The electricity sector is easier to move than automobiles. We’ve already seen a couple of major shifts (coal->nat gas->renewables), while we’re still very slow on the first big paradigm shift for cars.

[0]: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-...

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#214

Post by headmelted » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

dm319 wrote: post #3

The UK plan for no ICE vehicles to be sold by 2030 is fairly ambitious. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles on the roads, but I think some regular customers will be disappointed by how poor the infrastructure is. Not only that electric chargers aren't as prevalent as they need to be, but the number of high-speed chargers are tiny (think a couple of locations per large city), but an even bigger problem is the h…

This. Although I think it will happen.

Thankfully I charge my car at home and that’s enough for me about 99% of the time. There’s a fairly reliable CHADEMO pretty close by regardless, which helps.

The infrastructure in the UK has been really neglected though. They pushed hard early on, but since then they just let the L2’s fail for months then it’s a coin toss as to whether they fix them or just decommission them.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#215

Post by Gwypaas » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #207

buran77 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are about the only way to comply except pure BEVs On paper. In reality [0][1] unless you drive all electric all or most of the time the actual, real life CO2 emissions are far worse. Because now you have an ICE engine that hauls around an extra battery and electric motor, occasionally inefficiently charging the battery by burning gasoline. Many (most?) PHEVs owners don't have charging at home (reason to buy hy…

I bought a PHEV a year ago and the fuel savings are enormous. I've been filling it up once every 3 months so far, most of my journeys are done in fully electric mode, and when they are not I'm averaging 100-150mpg. Charging at home is pretty easy, but I do have my own driveway which I realize a lot of people don't. But yes, UK company tax structure around them is absolutely broken. You can get one, get a massive tax…

I think the question is where we want to be in 5 years, not being blinded by aiming for perfect or nothing today.

The ability to charge will drive infrastructure investments from the bottom up. Especially if it's cheaper than fossil fuels. My guess is we will start to see charging mentioned as a selling point in real estate ads in the coming years. Same with charging at stores or similar, although that is more limited.

All while helping BEVs become even more attractive.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#216

Post by buran77 » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:48 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #201

turtlebits wrote: post #178

Mass adoption won't happen until charging infrastructure improves dramatically. As a non-Tesla owner, I have had the worst experiences at fast charging stations - I'd say 70% of the time at Electrify America stations (they have the most fast charging coverage), I run into a charger that doesn't work and waste time moving my car and retrying another bay. (I've even experienced a station with 5 bays where none of them…

I've driven through Germany last summer, tried 3 different charging stations, none of them worked. Or rather, they did, but I couldn't set up the app for them, one because it didn't have an English option, one because it wouldn't accept my non-German card and another because it was giving me an extremely helpful "unspecified" error. But even here in UK it's a mess. There is a charging station near my home that seems…

Charging in much of Europe is really not a great experience. It's a fragmented market, different electricity providers (this matters, some chargers really want you to be a customer of a specific electricity provider, some just offer different prices depending on this), different charging networks, different plugs, different apps and payment methods, different behavior even if you're seemingly in the same network, wildly different prices, etc.

Every app shows different chargers and different status on whether they're occupied or not. Most are broken anyway. Some are on hotel or supermarket grounds so they're accessible only to some people, and even in the same network might have a different price because the owner of the land asks for a cut (yes, that's a thing). Some are inside a parking lot so you pay the parking on top of the charging. Some are on a free parking spot for EVs so someone will park there all day. Some charge per KWh, per minute, or a combination, plus maybe another one time fee.

Chargers need to be as ubiquitous as gas stations, and provide an experience that's just as frictionless. Drive in, pick a plug and start fast charging, get a maximum allotted time to charge, then pay like you'd do in any store, or better yet have the car talk to the charger and handle this for you (ISO 15118) and be on your way. Alternatively, to take advantage of how different electricity is from gas and maybe also use those cars as electricity storage, governments could invest to put charging points on every street parking, in every streetlight, etc.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#217

Post by headmelted » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:49 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #32

dm319 wrote: post #3

The UK plan for no ICE vehicles to be sold by 2030 is fairly ambitious. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles on the roads, but I think some regular customers will be disappointed by how poor the infrastructure is. Not only that electric chargers aren't as prevalent as they need to be, but the number of high-speed chargers are tiny (think a couple of locations per large city), but an even bigger problem is the h…

> the number of high-speed chargers are tiny (think a couple of locations per large city) That's not so far off. Even large cities in North America have no more than a few dozen gas stations (and the UK likely fewer still due to things like London's congestion pricing reducing vehicle count). Once-a-week-or-so fueling doesn't really require a huge amount of infrastructure. That's one of the reasons we're all addicted…

Was having this conversation with a neighbour the other day.

I have a 7kw charger at my house, but the loop for our street is 21kw, which is typical here. It’s going to be a big problem to solve when it comes to it.

I wouldn’t mind if I had to charge at 3.3kw, but if every car is an EV the current grid just isn’t going to be able to carry enough juice.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#218

Post by 4b11b4 » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

dm319 wrote: post #3

The UK plan for no ICE vehicles to be sold by 2030 is fairly ambitious. I'm seeing more and more electric vehicles on the roads, but I think some regular customers will be disappointed by how poor the infrastructure is. Not only that electric chargers aren't as prevalent as they need to be, but the number of high-speed chargers are tiny (think a couple of locations per large city), but an even bigger problem is the h…

This might suggest 2030 might not be ambitious but right on time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2yvsmDvxvA

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#219

Post by eckmLJE » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:50 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #203

Can someone who knows more about the subject that I do comment on the statement "electric powered vehicles are coal powered vehicles?" I'm seeing that in conservative circles.

The electricity that charges electric car batteries has to be generated somehow. In America, a lot of electricity is generated by coal power plants. For now, most electric cars are not in use in places where coal is the dominant energy source, so it's not a fair statement (for now).

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#220

Post by rconti » Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 11:51 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #201

turtlebits wrote: post #178

Mass adoption won't happen until charging infrastructure improves dramatically. As a non-Tesla owner, I have had the worst experiences at fast charging stations - I'd say 70% of the time at Electrify America stations (they have the most fast charging coverage), I run into a charger that doesn't work and waste time moving my car and retrying another bay. (I've even experienced a station with 5 bays where none of them…

I've driven through Germany last summer, tried 3 different charging stations, none of them worked. Or rather, they did, but I couldn't set up the app for them, one because it didn't have an English option, one because it wouldn't accept my non-German card and another because it was giving me an extremely helpful "unspecified" error. But even here in UK it's a mess. There is a charging station near my home that seems…

Ugh, card payments in Germany, for non-Germans, is generally a nightmare anyway. It's a bummer that it's not a solved problem for EV charging, because in many ways, I think the EU is ahead of the US in (non-Tesla) charging infra.