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Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

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Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#211

Post by maxerickson »

refurb wrote: post #204
pmoriarty wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Port of Portland is now shuttered because they intentionally slowed down work to the point of forcing companies to go elsewhere." Unions should be everywhere, so these companies could not escape them by relocating. Capital trying to feel the country should also be taxed heavily for the same reason.

Sounds like a planned economy. We know how well that works.

China has been doing okay using that sort of high level planning, where the government supervises a lot of the economy and limits the movement of capital.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#212

Post by stretchcat »

munk-a wrote: post #185
stretchcat wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there a bunch of would-be teachers clamoring for those jobs? Emphatically yes, particularly at nice well funded schools. I have numerous long-term friends who have become school teachers, many of then had to move quite a distance just to find schools with openings. Most states have teacher certification reciprocity with Pennsylvania, which gave them a leg up in this regard. Even so, searching for open positions…

> Emphatically yes, particularly at nice well funded schools. I emigrated up to Canada a while back where teachers are paid very well[1] and the bad teachers get weeded out really quickly since there are plenty of enthusiastic replacements. I am sure that at well funded schools in the US teachers do great - but most US schools are terribly funded[2] so I'm not surprised folks are willing to move across the country if…

Anecdotally, the schools with the worst funding also have the most troubled students. I think many new teachers are up for a challenge and low pay at first, but are disturbed by the reality of what they find and seek better schools for their own mental wellbeing. From what I've heard, these schools get a steady supply of freshly minted young teachers straight out of college, who burn out after a few years. Their teacher supply problems come from a failure to retain teachers, not an inability to hire them in the first place.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#213

Post by geofft »

munk-a wrote: post #163
spiznnx wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument that cops are not workers, in a Marxist sense, is because they work to protect the interests of capital, rather than do "productive" work that is useful to the rest of the working class. It's not a broadly held view, even among communists.

As a worker I appreciate the fact that when I was burgled a decade ago there was someone to call to inform about the burglary. I also very much appreciate the fact that "having police" (even vaguely, and even ineffective ones) is a pretty good deterrent to (most) random folks murdering other folks[1]. There is a hell of a lot wrong with American policing but they do productive work just like managers (that don't prod…

What did informing the cops about the burglary do, precisely?

One specific feature (at least in the US) is that a police report is required for an insurance claim - but there's no fundamental reason this system requires a police report, as opposed to, say, a sworn statement to a clerk of court or a public prosecutor. And even so, that's about getting some form of recompense after the crime happened, not stopping the crime (the burglary still happened to you, did it not?).

Along the same lines, I don't believe that the presence of the police prevents people from killing others. I certainly believe that the presence of the legal system does, by imposing strong penalties against murder. I'd believe that detective / investigative work (which a small fraction of the work the police do now, yes) aids the legal system by making those penalties actually happen. But I think you will find that there are very few potential murders where a cop is around and able to respond (by shooting first, I guess?) in time to prevent the murder from happening.

Even if you think of the favorable portrayal of cops in, say, Law and Order, they're generally investigating a crime that already happened, and it's pretty rare that they end up in a position by the end of the episode to stop a crime in progress and find themselves in a shootout.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#214

Post by Sodman »

stefan_ wrote: post #157
Sodman wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that democracy is imperfect, it can be (and is) frequently gamed and manipulated. Many people are worried about the following scenario: - Software engineers unionize - Some "bad" rules get implemented, perhaps passing vote by misleading slogans or over-represented groups etc. Maybe it was a narrow 51% vs 49% vote. - Top talent leaves, over time that 51% in favor of the bad rules becomes a larger and la…

Well that's a convoluted mess. Here is the game plan on the other side of the bargaining table: - Conspire with others to not pay top talent market rate and not poach employees - The end.

This particular scandal involved FANG companies... While obviously bad for employees, I don't think "we don't get paid enough" is a primary complaint amongst the FANG workers currently trying to unionize.

Outside of FANG, poaching and competing on salary are common, at least in the startup space.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#215

Post by Thlom »

pmyteh wrote: post #142
klmadfejno wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard a major difference is that in Europe you generally have a choice of multiple competing unions, vs. the US where you're generally in or you're out. The competition forces the unions to remain focused on the desires of the general population, otherwise they just lose membership.

Not really, at least in the UK. You can join any union that will have you, and there are several big 'general' unions. But most employers will only recognise a single union (if that) per group of workers. So, if you're an academic like me, you can join the University and College Union, and there will be a local organisation, probably a collective bargaining agreement with the university, and so on. Or join a differen…

Fairly similar in Norway, but many of the "competing" unions both have agreements with the employer organization. My wife actually switched union because the other union had an agreement which allowed a certain type of shift schedule that the other union did not have.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#216

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

pmoriarty wrote: post #104
random5634 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

I think the point should have more nuance. Nobody looks at enron's abuses and says corporations are blanket bad (okay, many do, but not most). Nor do they say enron's abuses were fine because corporations as a whole benefit society. Most look at enron and say corporations have the potential to do good or bad, so let's figure out how to keep them from going bad.

It's not unions good or unions bad. The focus should be on how to get unions that don't lead to the abuses people are afraid of. When it comes to unions, the discussion seems to be much more take-it-or-leave-it.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#217

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

nostromo wrote: post #16
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #2

I wonder what percentage of otherwise very liberal Amazon devs read sentences like "The company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." and come away thinking "we're definitely the good guys."

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

> I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

Bernie Sanders and AOC would like a word. Most of their platform is based around supporting the working class.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#218

Post by kortilla »

dragonwriter wrote: post #187
kortilla wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most recent drama was about a researcher having her quitting ultimatum called by a manager. It wasn’t anything to do with sexual harassment or anything about underpaid or unsafe workplaces.

> The most recent drama was about a researcher having her quitting ultimatum called by a manager. No, it wasn’t. Even to the extent that might be considered a superficially correct description of part of what happened, its not the center of the “drama”, which is more centrally about the treatment which led up to that.

But that’s the point. The “treatment leading up to that” was a mid 6 figure income and nearly free reign to do research in her field of interest. Not relatable to most of the lower or middle class in the US.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#219

Post by rootusrootus »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #63
legitster wrote: post #9

I have to imagine unions have a bit of an uphill battle right now, they took some major black eyes in 2020: - Police unions openly declaring war on their own citizens - Teachers unions causing general chaos in school reopening plans I understand that public sector unions are a different beast, but purely from an optics perspective I have to imagine public sentiment for unions can't be very high right now.

Public sector unions feel so strange to me- could you imagine there being military unions?

I generally agree that public sector unions shouldn't exist, but on the other hand, it's undeniable that voters can be very fickle employers.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#220

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

joshe wrote: post #80
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

American unions are quite different from European unions. European unions spend a lot of time running apprenticeship programs and doing things like advocating for more productivity. Like trying to figure out how to make the shop floor more efficient. American unions spend time preventing bad employees from being fired (like the NY teacher's rubber rooms and police unions fighting the firing of cops with 5 excessive f…

So how do we get european style unions here in america? How is it that they are able to avoid those issues and what lessons can we take that aren't "america just can't do unions right."
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