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Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#211

Post by jasonlaramburu »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #208
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandates will increase compliance and save more lives. Sorry but your position contradicts itself and smacks of confirmation bias. If the US government really were systematically corrupt and authoritarian, why would they want to curtail economic activity? They would tell everyone not to worry about COVID and keep driving, eating out, shopping etc to maximize tax revenue and the availability of bribes. I have read tha…

> because humans have trouble accepting the reality that sometimes, bad things simply happen for no rational reason I believe this and I think it applies to all the lockdowns and moral superiority stuff where people are shamed for not following NPIs that don't seem effective. It's as though the pro-lockdown side can't accept that sometimes tragedy happens and we're relatively powerless to stop it. So, unable to accep…

>It's as though the pro-lockdown side can't accept that sometimes tragedy happens and we're relatively powerless to stop it

There are multiple countries (in both northern and southern hemisphere, islands and mainlands) that have eliminated community transmission of covid. It is wrong to say we are powerless to stop it. It is indisputable that if you and your family stay home, you will not get COVID. Likewise, common sense dictates that more people will stay home if required to do so by their government.

You are trying to make the argument, absent data, that the economic and social/emotional impacts of 'stay at home' orders are worse than the economic and social/emotional impacts of uncontrolled viral infection and death.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#212

Post by ketamine__ »

rusk wrote: post #200
ketamine__ wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fool if I think people spending money is all it takes to sustain an economy? Okay.

Yes. Is that what you think economics is? People buying stuff in shops?

I think a lot of people lost their jobs working at small businesses in the Covid-19 pandemic.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#214

Post by JohnCohorn »

djsumdog wrote: post #163
JohnCohorn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s debate on how much masks reduce spread, and obviously a lot of variation in effectiveness given wildly different materials and design for masks that are not designed to be protective. But I’ve never heard of any serious scientific debate about their helping to some reasonable degree. With possibly high benefits and very low cost(in dollars and in freedom as compared to other measures) wearing masks while indo…

> and very low cost The costs are high. Estimates show millions, if not over a billion, of these things will make their way into oceans. That's massive environmental damage: https://nypost.com/2020/12/28/more-than-1-5b-masks-will-poll... They have a high social cost. They are causing fear and adding stigma. People are judging one another for mask usage out of pure religion reasoning. If they are not very effective, w…

Agree that they certainly do have a cost. I personally HATE them and am quite annoyed that people pretend the issues they cause don’t exist. They mess up my ability to read and to telegraph social cues, make it difficult for people that read lips to aid poor hearing, and constantly fog my glasses. And I still wear them when indoors in public like I believe everyone should!

But what I said which you trimmed off was that they are low cost _relative to other measures_. People wearing masks well is likely to reduce the need to use far more onerous measures like the lockdowns or having to decide who receives hospital care and who doesn’t.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#215

Post by jeofken »

f6v wrote: post #191
jeofken wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our natural rights are God-given and true since all men are equal children of creation, and thus no man has the right to stand above any other and deny them their right to speech or to gather. I am the property of myself and have the sole right of ownership - not anyone employed by the state. This was worded well by the writers of the American constitution, but the idea is as old as time - it’s the idea of universali…

Well, maybe God wants the government to lock you up. How do you know?

It’s colourful language, I’d advice reading it as such

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#216

Post by rusk »

ketamine__ wrote: post #212
rusk wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Is that what you think economics is? People buying stuff in shops?

I think a lot of people lost their jobs working at small businesses in the Covid-19 pandemic.

I think you’re right. Hey have a look at Sweden.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#217

Post by Silhouette »

matz1 wrote: post #202
Silhouette wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to say something is bad. It's more difficult to say what, specifically, would be better. What exactly would "better managed" look like, in your opinion, and what evidence do you have that your version of events would result in better outcomes than the lockdown measures that have been used?

You posted link about ambulance delays. This is issue is not caused by covid, because it happened as well in the past where there was not covid. By implementing lockdown, now you have 2 issue : Ambulance delay and the damage from lockdown.

I'm not sure your conclusion logically follows from the evidence, but even if it did, you still haven't answered the big questions your position raises. If you think what they're doing at the moment is wrong, what specifically do you think they should be doing instead and why do you think your alternative strategy would have better outcomes?

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#218

Post by djsumdog »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #189
djsumdog wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Emergency powers should never be treated as temporary given history The TSA. Body Scanners. Removing your shoes (America only; it's the only country out of the 10+ I've flow through that forced you to still remove your shoes. Some people do it in other places out of habit, but no one else actually requires it). > Entitlement? Entitlement is how to describe every comfy white collar worker that rolls out of bed and h…

> The numbers are really clear on mask usage. Do you have sources? Legitimately interested.

https://rationalground.com/post-thanksgiving-mask-charts-sti...

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#219

Post by djsumdog »

Daishiman wrote: post #181
djsumdog wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you cannot see any of these problems or understand how they are fracturing people and groups all around the world is part of the problem itself. These are all highly legitimate concerns you just dismiss with a whimsical "that's stupid." People who just accept masks and advocate for them immediately without question are also very likely to murder the person in the other room in the Stanley Milgram experi…

No, I have personally seen each and every problem, and most everyone has seen them prima facie, and it boggles my mind how even so there can be a value judgement against masks.

https://rationalground.com/post-thanksgiving-mask-charts-sti...

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#220

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #211
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because humans have trouble accepting the reality that sometimes, bad things simply happen for no rational reason I believe this and I think it applies to all the lockdowns and moral superiority stuff where people are shamed for not following NPIs that don't seem effective. It's as though the pro-lockdown side can't accept that sometimes tragedy happens and we're relatively powerless to stop it. So, unable to accep…

>It's as though the pro-lockdown side can't accept that sometimes tragedy happens and we're relatively powerless to stop it There are multiple countries (in both northern and southern hemisphere, islands and mainlands) that have eliminated community transmission of covid. It is wrong to say we are powerless to stop it. It is indisputable that if you and your family stay home, you will not get COVID. Likewise, common…

> You are trying to make the argument, absent data, that the economic and social/emotional impacts of 'stay at home' orders are worse than the economic and social/emotional impacts of uncontrolled viral infection and death.

My argument has the proof of vast majority of countries that’ve failed to mitigate spread with high tradeoffs and costs to society.

If Europe ostensibly can’t manage it - how is the US expected, given the elevated opinion of Europe most people on the pro-lockdown side tend to presume?

Where’s the evidence that NPIs are effective?

You want ivory tower detachment and ignorance? Suggest America just “be Australia or China.”

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