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An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

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211–220 of 242 posts

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#211
post #202

> "You'd have to sit in a meeting with Bill, and he's frighteningly brilliant. People throw around the word 'genius' all the time, and the way people say 'genius' is not accurate if you've met somebody who is a genius – somebody who, when you meet them, it seems like aliens are whispering in their ear because there's no way they could know these things otherwise. This is a different kind of a thing, and Bill's like t…

I understand that we are looking at this from a position of strong bias, having the technology in front of us already. But surely smart engineers in that sector would be well aware of how easily science-fiction can turn into reality, having witnessed half a century of astounding developments? Did no one really take Bill's predictions that seriously at the time?

Lot of people understood it was going to be massive. But they understood it as “doing X on the internet”. Just like everyone was making “Uber for X” three years ago. Yahoo was yellow pages on the web. Viaweb was shopping. Broadcast was radio. All X on the web.

At the time, most web sites were official company sites (basically HTML ads). A few news sites (Bloomberg was an early one). Some research labs and universities.

When we started IIS, there were maybe 3 million internet-connected users worldwide, and the web server we were running couldn’t handle the traffic coming to Microsoft’s web site - that would be single digit QPS.

Bill not only comes in and says “video calling”. But also free, worldwide, and on a PDA. Making a video ad showcasing the concept back then would have cost more than building the product itself today. Everyone can predict the future, very few can predict the future with an error of +/- 5 years. Nobody will bet a company richer than god on it.

Some of my ex-Apple colleagues used to “joke” that Bill’s gift was to see a piece of technology, and hit the fast forward button, and Steve (Jobs)’s gift was to see the future and hit rewind to the present day. Both hit the button too hard at times (Apple Newton, Lisa, IIS, WebTV).

Bill saw the internet, and knew it was the platform of the future a week later. The OS didn’t matter, the chipmaker didn’t matter, the form factor didn’t matter. It was all about content and services at the edge.

Unfortunately for Microsoft - and fortunately for other companies - cannibalizing Windows wasn’t on the menu. It didn’t matter what Bill thought. There was the board, shareholders, Steve, Dave. Even rank and file employees would not be receptive - someone on every team was vesting enough stock to become a millionaire each week, why would you talk about changing course? It’s really true that after a certain size, your maneuverability is severely restricted. So they doubled down into trying to make Windows + IE the internet, and nearly succeeded.

Two things had to happen before others saw the same things Bill did. Javascript running in the browser (1997), and Google figuring out hardware didn’t matter on the server side (2000). Java was a token threat. Bill knew it would not be performant enough on clients for Applets to succeed. They had to rebuild their language to put every fixed-size object on the stack because sorting an array on a typical machine took forever. That’s why Java still doesn’t have operator overloading. That Java battle would be on the server, and we didn’t have a good language to bring to the battle there. Wired and co loved to paint a picture of Microsoft v Java as Goliath v David. Not true - Java was a speedbump.

The real threat was dumb terminals (aka web browsers). Even today, the world could run on Mac OS / iOS and Safari. If Microsoft was okay with sacrificing Windows market share and instead controlled content and services, they would be much more valuable. OS wars ended in 1995 - I think we had prototype of Excel running inside IE by 1999. It wasn’t very usable, but was maybe 3 years of clock speed improvements away. Wait for 3 years and you have an incredible product. Nope - some people decided to pour more resources to tying IE to Windows. Idiotic strategy when a web browser at the time would be a two-week project since every OS kernel shipped networking primitives by now. Rendering HTML/XML was trivial.

Once the DOJ walked into Microsoft, it was all walking on eggshells from then on. More people saw the vision, but were too scared to act.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#212
My takeaway is that this is a good example to keep in mind when considering architectural diversity, whether in software or hardware. Can your business take the hit if/when Apple/Microsoft/Amazon enter your industry, as a direct competitor, using your own platform and established userbase against you?

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#213

"Microsoft's choice of codename for the console project – Midway – was a deliberate statement, one that may seem problematic in a more enlightened age, referring as it does to the World War II battle in which US forces defeated the Japanese. " Hard to believe someone wrote that non-ironically...

And, Manhattan Project was the codename of DirectX. Relevant comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25431199

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they? I thought people just got windows with their PC and didn’t buy it. Lots of people use office at work, but I don’t know anyone that bought it personally. Google docs works fine for 99.9% of what people need office software for.

Office was and is so popular because it's better than the competition. Microsoft originally had hoped someone else would provide decent office type software. But it was crap so they wrote their own.

Would MS have written their own if Google docs had been around back then (assuming we also had broadband Internet back then)?

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#215
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that we are looking at this from a position of strong bias, having the technology in front of us already. But surely smart engineers in that sector would be well aware of how easily science-fiction can turn into reality, having witnessed half a century of astounding developments? Did no one really take Bill's predictions that seriously at the time?

Lot of people understood it was going to be massive. But they understood it as “doing X on the internet”. Just like everyone was making “Uber for X” three years ago. Yahoo was yellow pages on the web. Viaweb was shopping. Broadcast was radio. All X on the web. At the time, most web sites were official company sites (basically HTML ads). A few news sites (Bloomberg was an early one). Some research labs and universitie…

Thanks for giving us the insider's perspective, I really appreciate it.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really use percentages to say that something has declined if the whole pie is growing, and web use is maybe the one thing that looks least favorable for desktops.

Ok, here are absolute numbers. PC sales look stagnant at best. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263393/global-pc-shipmen...

That's a tale of saturation. Toaster sales are probably relatively flat as well. Not because toaster use has declined but because people already have a toaster that meets their toasting needs. PC improvements have slowed to a crawl over the past decade in terms of real-world performance gains for the average consumer. Their 5 year old rig still manages to surf the web, stream videos, play games and send emails just fine so they see no reason to upgrade. Another 4 cores or the jump from 14nm+ to 14nm++++ isn't justifiable for the average user. That said I bet the combination of COVID + AMD really coming out swinging the past 2 years might make for a bit of an anomalous spike.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#217
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't describe my logic, so to which logic are you referring? I made some statements which I believe to be true. You're just contributing to my beliefs that humanity is entirely worthless.

I'm sorry you took offense, I didn't mean to be rude. I'm just making a point about logic in general, not "your logic" whatever you mean by that. Fundamental drives and goals are necessarily axiomatic and so cannot be derived logically. Intermediate goals yes, but not base drives and objectives.

My "logic" is this: humanity continually makes decisions collectively which harm humanity collectively. We are into self-harm in a major way, and almost no one cares. Those who do care are effectively shunned by others because more money is made by ignoring them and marginalizing their views.

Humanity is a self-destructive mess and deserves to go extinct.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to respectfully disagree. He did contribute to MS before he became CEO. And invested in a lot of things where the fruits are harvested to this day.

> He did contribute to MS before he became CEO. I thought we were assessing him as a CEO, not an employee. Sure, he contributed before, and during, being a CEO. And obviously everything is speculation since we can't A/B test hypothetical timelines. But the numerous anecdotes of his "unique" management (if some of the stories are true, which I cannot verify, the guy should get sued for harassment on multiple counts),…

It’s okay to have your own opinion. I think it’s really easy to judge others when we are not in their shoes and to believe that somehow we could have done a better job. As you point out, it’s hard to understand what would have happened in a different scenario.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#219
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lot of people understood it was going to be massive. But they understood it as “doing X on the internet”. Just like everyone was making “Uber for X” three years ago. Yahoo was yellow pages on the web. Viaweb was shopping. Broadcast was radio. All X on the web. At the time, most web sites were official company sites (basically HTML ads). A few news sites (Bloomberg was an early one). Some research labs and universitie…

Thanks for giving us the insider's perspective, I really appreciate it.

You’re very welcome. Always nice to walk down memory lane to an exciting era for the industry.

Fun office rumour from the time: MSFT offices were in Seattle, while most competitors were in California. Yet Bill and co always seemed to know what every new company - stealth mode or not - was up to.

Rumour was that Msft had bribed a lot of SV reporters to gather intel. Often in the cafes and computer clubs where people loved to talk.

When Clinton was elected, there was some government agency shakeup and lot of ex-FBI agents were available to contract. Quite a few VIPs’ security affairs (including Michael Jordan who was the biggest star in the world) were handled by these contractors. Story went that we’d hired a number of them into the competitor intel work. We’d known about Sun working on a user space VM since 1992.

No idea if these were true or just fair tales.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#220
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why putting character flaws into quotes? They are still character flaws, the same way as same behavior is if it is not coming from rich powergul person. There is no reason to pretend it is something special. If they helped him to get more money and more credit and what not, that does not make them not flaws.

They aren’t “flaws” to everyone. One person’s asshole is another person’s straight shooter.

Which part do you perceive as "straight shooter"?
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