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Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

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Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#211

Post by hmottestad »

bluecalm wrote: post #180
hmottestad wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway pedestrians have the right of way on zebras. There was a fair bit of discussion a few years ago about how someone jogging in the dark would dart across a zebra and then drivers had to slam on the brakes not to hit them. As a driver though, most roads to my right have the right of way. So if there is a road to the right where the view is blocked by some bushes or a house ... I will slow down just in case a c…

Genuine question: don't pedestrians have the right of way on crosswalks/zebras everywhere? I thought it's the very idea of having the crossing in the first place.

In Italy and also bigger cities in France you probably only have the right of way if they hit you. I remember once in Paris standing at a main road for 5 min waiting for someone, anyone, to even slow down slightly. When I did try to venture across the zebra the cars all had to stomp on their brakes as if they were surprised that waiting at a regular zebra meant I intended to cross.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#212

Post by woodruffw »

dehrmann wrote: post #205
woodruffw wrote: post #100

We in the US do an absolutely horrific job of recognizing and compensating for the externalities of our automotive culture. The criminalization of jaywalking is one major aspect, but also consider: 1. The construction of highways through poor (read: minority) urban areas, causing mass respiratory disease and premature deaths[1]. 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (dis…

> 2. Allocation of free public space (car parking) to drivers, effectively subsidizing (disproportionately suburban) commuters at the expense of residents. The times I've commuted into a city, I had to pay for parking, usually in a private lot. I suspect it's like this in most big cities, and in smaller cities where people still commute, parking is probably private lots owned by the employer, not street parking. Pict…

> In places with free street parking (or public lots), I suspect the population is sparse enough that the added land cost for parting isn't a big deal, most people have cars, and most people support having parking.

This is not true in Manhattan, which (to my knowledge) is the most densely populated borough in the most densely populated city in the US. Almost all street parking in Manhattan is free, with small carve-outs for meters on high-traffic blocks.

The city also has a semi-official policy of allowing commercial traffic to ignore parking laws[1]. In practice, that means trucks parked on sidewalks, with pedestrians exposed to car traffic on the streets.

[1]: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/08/20/delivery-companies-pr...

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#213

Post by _Wintermute »

rwhitman wrote: post #125

This is entirely about the same politics of safety we're seeing play out with the pandemic. If jaywalking was legal, the sacrifice is that we'd have to drive slower to watch for pedestrians. As Americans our priority has been individual convenience, over collective safety of our neighbors. Its shifting slowly, but for the most part this is a battle we're grappling with as a society on multiple fronts right now.

> If jaywalking was legal, the sacrifice is that we'd have to drive slower to watch for pedestrians

The majority of countries don't have laws like jaywalking yet they have similar speed limits to the US. Instead you have a mutual understanding of don't step out infront of traffic when you're a pedestrian, and look out for pedestrians when you're driving.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#214

Post by leetcrew »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #79
umvi wrote: post #21

Jaywalking drives me crazy... sometimes I wish American culture was more German/Japanese in this area and Americans walked the extra 20 feet to the nearest crosswalk and waited for the light. A few times now I've had to tap my brakes for some guy dashing across the street to the island in the middle because he was too impatient to wait for the light to change. Sometimes it's a lady with a shopping cart. These aren't…

There is a noticeable anti-automobile crowd here on HN. Personally, anti-jaywalking laws just make sense and there doesn't need to be sinister motivations from the auto-industry to explain why we have them.

I am definitely not anti-car (I love cars and driving), but I don't agree that jaywalking laws make any kind of sense. as a driver, it's enough to be presumed not at fault for hitting a pedestrian that is behaving erratically. as a pedestrian, it's absurd not to be allowed to cross an empty street when convenient.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#215

Post by leetcrew »

reportingsjr wrote: post #136
BitwiseFool wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a noticeable anti-automobile crowd here on HN. Personally, anti-jaywalking laws just make sense and there doesn't need to be sinister motivations from the auto-industry to explain why we have them.

There are not anti-automobile people on here. There are people who are sick of cars being pushed as the /only/ way for things to be done. Almost every person you see advocating for better safety for pedestrians, people biking, etc understands that cars are necessary for some things. It just doesn't need to be forced for literally every small thing.

there are at least a few commenters here who repeatedly advocate for banning cars altogether in cities. if not "anti-automobile", how would you describe this position?

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#216

Post by _Wintermute »

hmottestad wrote: post #211
bluecalm wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: don't pedestrians have the right of way on crosswalks/zebras everywhere? I thought it's the very idea of having the crossing in the first place.

In Italy and also bigger cities in France you probably only have the right of way if they hit you. I remember once in Paris standing at a main road for 5 min waiting for someone, anyone, to even slow down slightly. When I did try to venture across the zebra the cars all had to stomp on their brakes as if they were surprised that waiting at a regular zebra meant I intended to cross.

Pedestrian crossings in Paris really are a leap of faith, you just have to be assertive and walk out hoping the driver isn't looking at their phone, otherwise you'll stand there for hours because no-one will stop for you.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#218

Post by ck425 »

Jaywalking is such ridiculous 'crime'. It's not a thing here in the UK and when an American friend first explained it at uni I thought they were winding me up. It's no wonder American cities are so unwalkable and that America has an obesity crisis

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#219

Post by jacobolus »

twblalock wrote: post #203
imglorp wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget.. 4. Auto makers conspired to kill or cripple mass transit. http://www.brooklynrail.net/NationalCityLinesConspiracy.html

There were quite a few other factors that led to the decline of streetcars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... One of the biggest is that people actually like living in suburbs, and they could afford to do so after WWII. The promise of the suburbs is a detached house, with some private outdoor space like a back yard, in a quiet area: essentially what the rich had always preferred and been…

They could afford to move to suburbs because the federal government subsidized the hell out of it at the expense of people living in cities.

Re: Jaywalking decriminalization, 100 years after the auto industry made it a crime

#220

Post by leetcrew »

dragontamer wrote: post #48
maxmorlocke wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because jaywalking is very frequently used by police to target communities of color. As an example, 90% of the jaywalking citations given in NYC in 2019 were issued to people of color.

Furthermore: Police use the jaywalking as an excuse to perform more invasive searching. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/versace-shoe-designer-says-... "You were Jaywalking, so I'm going to check you for Weapons / Weed / etc. etc." ---------- I think there should be some provision for Police to officially detain someone if they think there's an issue (but can't quite find a legal reason of doing so...). But at the sa…

> I think there should be some provision for Police to officially detain someone if they think there's an issue (but can't quite find a legal reason of doing so...). But at the same time, "abusing" the Jaywalking laws to do so is certainly the wrong way of doing it.

why exactly? it's hard for me to imagine a situation where a cop reasonably needs to detain someone but can't come up with even one possible charge.

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