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EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

bbc.com

211–220 of 332 posts

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#211
post #51

The not allowing uninstallable apps part is interesting. Looking through their FAQ, they don't really seem to define what a "app" is. Could this not mean the entire OS should be replaceable with one that wasn't made by a "gatekeeper"? Because if say, Apple, allows you to remove Messages.app but keeps the Messages API private or locked behind an Apple-only entitlement, that isn't very useful, and the user should be ab…

> all of the system services be able to be accessed by whatever app the user installs

It would be nice if they started by requiring that phone OSes add back the ability for apps to put the phone into / out of Airplane Mode. The API for that used to be available to unrooted Android phones, until version 4.2.2 came out which broke some apps[0].

A phone should be able to listen on Wi-Fi (or even FM) for a packet that indicates an incoming call, so that the rest of the time it can be disconnected from the cellular network and not reveal the user's approximate location.

[0] https://apkpure.com/scheduled-airplane-mode-root/com.galaxy....

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#212
post #138
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ursula von der Leyen did not receive any votes She was nominated by the Council of Europe (comprised of the heads of state for each of the EU nations), and confirmed by the European Parliament (which represents the European electorate).

That is a very uncharitable and weak interpretation of the grandparent. For the parliamentary elections, the bigger parties agreed to try to fix democracy deficits by promising to elect a nominated candidate (Frans Timmmermans and Manfred Weber) as president of the commission depending on which block won in parliament. Yet, after the election, in a typical EU backroom deal, von der Leyen was elected. So it is quite f…

Right, hence a representative democracy. Our elected representatives, represent our voices in their votes.

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#213
post #75

Ok, I will probably get downvoted for this. But I will still speak my mind: I am an EU citizen and I don’t think that’s the right approach because it’s distracting from what really happened: We missed the big Internet bus because we were so much focused on keeping things the way they were. Now we try to regulate us out. It makes me unbelievably sad. And it continues. The car was invented here but it takes an Australi…

The EU is a diverse place. I think trying to generalize “the EU” as being a certain way is making a too crude generalization. But when all is said and done I’d sure much rather have EU regulation and EU share of internet companies, than anything else.

Also who’s the Aussie? If anyone is pushing on car companies these days I’d say it’s Elon Musk (Who is a South Africa born American)

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can a citizen who is governed by the EU meaningfully influence who is doing that governing? In particular, can a large group of citizens affect who holds power within the EU and vote out those individuals they don't want, so any individual office holder has some degree of personal accountability to the electorate? Erm yes. A large group of citizen can apply pressure to its local government to push for change in the…

These are the usual arguments in defence of the EU's democratic credentials. The fundamental problem I have with them is that they don't actually meet the simple, transparent standards I set out for meaningful democratic representation. National governments pick the members of the European Commision, so if you're not happy with your European Commission representative, take it up with your national government. How, sp…

> How, specifically, should someone do that in practice? Does someone cast an anonymous vote to indicate their preference? Will some robust system then make an objective determination of the outcome based on the popular vote? This is how the people customarily determine their representatives in a representative democracy.

Well it up to each national government to decide this process. If you're not happy with the way your national government makes this selection, then I encourage you to reach out to you national government representative and make your views heard. If it's something you really care about, then start a grassroots movement, or join a large national political party, and advance change the same way you would for any other domestic issue.

It seems like at very large, and undemocratic, over step for the EU to dictate how national governments run their affairs within the boundaries of the treats that define the EU. Something that every national government in the EU ratified. If you're not happy with how your national government ratified those treaties, then I again recommend the above, contact your local national government representative and make your views heard.

> European Commissioner is infamous for being a role you give a national politician who is still in favour with the leadership but perhaps has lost popular support.

This is hardly a surprise. The whole point of European Commissioners is it's how national governments retain their own sovereignty. Of-course they're going to give the role to people they know and trust, they want them to be aligned with their own national interests, not the broader EU interests. Once again, you don't like it, talk to your national government, this is their choice, not the EU's. Most people in the EU with a federalist world view would much rather see more direct democracy within the EU, with a reduction in power of national governments in the process.

> so again at a minimum it fails my personal accountability criterion.

You have a strange concept of what personal accountability means, why does the electorate need a direct method of removing an individual? How would that even work? Not to mention the issue that it turns the entire political system into little more than a popularity contest. People who are good national leaders are not always good campaigners, and good campaigner are not always good leaders. Boris Johnson in the UK is a classic example of the latter.

> Don't like your nation's choice for European Commissioner? No problem, just elect a different entire national government at the last election. Don't like the UK's current PM? No problem, just make sure no-one votes for any MPs in that person's party at the last election.

Well interestingly have a healthy PR system with many parties makes this very easy. When your government is made up of many parties collaborating together, it's easier for the electorate to just vote for someone else, without it causing a huge swing in government direction.

I notice that in your previous comment, you talk about how terrible FPTP is, now your saying the PR is also bad. What exactly do you want?

> And the same is true of most other elected representatives and political appointments, whether in the UK or EU. This isn't about Brexit, or about being pro- or anti-EU, if that even means anything anyway. It's a problem with systems of government operating at national and international levels where those in power are so well insulated from the voting public that they don't require a popular mandate and aren't required to be accountable to the people for whom they supposedly act. That's not democracy, at least not in any meaningful sense of the word.

I'm glad you recognise that you're demands aren't fulfilled by any current form of democracy anywhere in the world. But, you know, this whole democracy thing is still a work in progress, to quote Churchill

> No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

I'm personally not ready to throw the towel in just yet. Sure the EU needs work, I don't disagree, but I don't think it fundamentally less democratic than any other democratic government. Humanity is still trying to figure out this whole fair and equitable division of power and resources. And rather than just rubbishing all the work so far, I much prefer to focus on area where it's really worked. Such as the 75 years uninterrupted of peace the Europe has had, thanks to the EU, to grow and prosper into a place where countries like the UK can throw a tantrum and storm off, and no one needs to worry about a war.

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#215
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let us say the internet was created 50 years ago, and Facebook decided to eradicate all homosexual content. Perhaps, not even maliciously but as collateral damage for another goal. Would it have been as shocking or obviously bad?

The internet is not the only place the social changes happens. Equally the EU isn't applying the same regulation to every company, the most significant ones only apply to companies with 10% market share. It would be quite plausible for gay friendly social networks to spring up to fill that gap, and I would entirely expect it to happen. Apps like Grindr basically proves it would happen.

Excellent comment, and fully agree with that.

With freedom comes responsibility and so forth. One persons freedom should not remove another's - which is what the platforms are doing.

The EU are ready to act https://twitter.com/NetopiaEU/status/1338879633392070656

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#216
post #194
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Another interesting tidbit is the answer to the common trope that 'private platform can act as they wish since they are private' : Now the EU is saying the same thing to Apple. It is their market, and they dictate the rules. Which is perhaps a taste of Apple's own medicine? I wonder what those people who keep saying it is Apple's platform they can do what ever they want had to say? I sometimes wonder had Apple not b…

This is weird to me, the argument is not just that company X is a private platform so they should be able to do what they want it is that they're a private US platform and in the US they can do what they want because that's generally the law and social understanding of companies in the US. At least for me it was never that company X can do what they want globally. That's silly they're subject to the laws of the juris…

The argument against/for what? Do you think people who call for new legislation think it is already illegal? This would make no sense.

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#217
post #75

Ok, I will probably get downvoted for this. But I will still speak my mind: I am an EU citizen and I don’t think that’s the right approach because it’s distracting from what really happened: We missed the big Internet bus because we were so much focused on keeping things the way they were. Now we try to regulate us out. It makes me unbelievably sad. And it continues. The car was invented here but it takes an Australi…

Elon is South African, not Australian

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#218
post #75

Ok, I will probably get downvoted for this. But I will still speak my mind: I am an EU citizen and I don’t think that’s the right approach because it’s distracting from what really happened: We missed the big Internet bus because we were so much focused on keeping things the way they were. Now we try to regulate us out. It makes me unbelievably sad. And it continues. The car was invented here but it takes an Australi…

Why would you be downvoted? You're speaking in favor of your enemies, which are the tech companies in the U.S. the employees of which comprises most of the HN crowd.

It is in the best interest of the E.U. to regulate Big Tech, if only because they are all from the U.S.

But with massive amount of economic muscle that tech companies can muster, specially if they work together, not to mention most of EU still "protected" by NATO, I doubt EU will manage to anything big anytime soon.

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#219
post #142
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Another interesting tidbit is the answer to the common trope that 'private platform can act as they wish since they are private' : Now the EU is saying the same thing to Apple. It is their market, and they dictate the rules. Which is perhaps a taste of Apple's own medicine? I wonder what those people who keep saying it is Apple's platform they can do what ever they want had to say? I sometimes wonder had Apple not b…

The difference is that Apple is not a government. That means they are not an organization which can legally stop, detain, arrest, charge, prosecute, convict, imprison, and kill you.

The other difference is that a democratic government is accountable to voters while Apple is only accountable to its shareholders.

Re: EU reveals plan to regulate Big Tech

#220
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that Apple is not a government. That means they are not an organization which can legally stop, detain, arrest, charge, prosecute, convict, imprison, and kill you.

The other difference is that a democratic government is accountable to voters while Apple is only accountable to its shareholders.

The implications of my statement necessitates this difference.
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