Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#211

Post by skywhopper » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #196

whoknew1122 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume that there isn't a 'Google Brain Men and Allies' affinity group. "Google Brain" does likely have its own general distro where standard work-related topics are discussed. At the hazard of becoming 'political' and triggering people, affinity groups are typically created for groups that have traditionally been underserved, marginalized, or have special considerations. As a cis male, I don't really see the…

I understand these seem to be sensitive and 'political' issues in the US. I just do not understand how any of this labeling and segregation can be productive in a workplace.

You don’t understand how trans people might have specific things in common to talk about that non-trans people don’t relate to? These groups aren’t just for political hot topics, but also for parents or for musicians or runners or any other affinity group.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#212

Post by dang » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

jiuahweruihawi wrote: post #108

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Gebru's final thread on the topic ( https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1276326634195259392 ), she lectured LeCun how to give a proper apology, stated that he was engaging in "pattern of marginalization" causing "incredible harm", and instructed him to educate himself and listen to Black and Brown people before speaking to her again.

That's a shame, she only needed to add "lived experience" and "mansplaining" for me to fill in my "woke bigot weaponising her race and gender to shut down a valid discussion" bingo sheet.

We've banned this account for using HN for ideological battle, which is against the site guidelines and not what this site is for. We've also banned a bunch of related accounts that were doing the same thing, including posting in the same thread. That's seriously abusive.

Please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with!

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#213

Post by kitsune_ » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

compycom wrote: post #83

twentytwo11 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to her, Yann LeCun is a racist just because he said that a specific ML model was biased due to a bias in the data and not because ML learning as a research field was racist. Such an inspiration!

She didn't call him a racist. She pointed out that there's more to addressing bias than just acknowledging that it's there. If you are going to say "Well, garbage-in, garbage-out!", why do you keep putting the racist garbage in? Why do you, knowing of the problem, keep using biased sources of data, knowing of the potential harms? That's the deeper question ML research/industry has to grapple with. When these models a…

Everyone should read your comment. YLC's initial reply was shockingly reductionist and myopic. How can supposedly smart people, software engineers who are used to thinking in systems and dependencies be so stupid? There is a blindspot in the tech community that is simply terrifying.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#214

Post by black_puppydog » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

This seems to be the email she sent to the internal "Women and Allies" mailing list:

https://www.platformer.news/p/the-withering-email-that-got-a...

The most relevant parts (in terms of back story) should be this:

> A week before you go out on vacation, you see a meeting pop up at 4:30pm PST on your calendar (this popped up at around 2pm). No one would tell you what the meeting was about in advance. Then in that meeting your manager’s manager tells you “it has been decided” that you need to retract this paper by next week, Nov. 27, the week when almost everyone would be out (and a date which has nothing to do with the conference process). You are not worth having any conversations about this, since you are not someone whose humanity (let alone expertise recognized by journalists, governments, scientists, civic organizations such as the electronic frontiers foundation etc) is acknowledged or valued in this company.

> Then, you ask for more information. What specific feedback exists? Who is it coming from? Why now? Why not before? Can you go back and forth with anyone? Can you understand what exactly is problematic and what can be changed?

> And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything. You write a detailed document discussing whatever pieces of feedback you can find, asking for questions and clarifications, and it is completely ignored. And you’re met with, once again, an order to retract the paper with no engagement whatsoever.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#215

Post by hintymad » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

throwaway-kmc wrote: post #63

veridies wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd never heard of this fight before, so I just looked it up. My interpretation is that he made that claim, Gebru responded by claiming that that was an overly reductionist view of things (given, presumably, the fact that biased assumptions could affect the coded assumptions as well as the training data), he maintained his opinion, and she felt frustrated that she didn't feel she was being listened to. I did not see…

Here’s a good summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yan... I think it’s clear Gebru was acting in bad faith and LeCunn was baffled and trying to deescalate. Gebru responds to each attempt to deescalate by a reply designed to further rile up Twitter, without actually talking to any of the points LeCunn makes. Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say w…

The discussion shows that Gebru is a racist to the bone because she viewed everything from the racism angle. LeCunn could be wrong by attributing bias to statistical bias in data, but how is it bigotry without evidence? Yet, oh no, LeCunn is a racist in Gebru's eyes, and in this strange American culture, Gebru could just call anyone or any opinion she didn't like racist or racism.

I'd say she deserved to be fired for she is a racist who's damning to a normal society.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#216

Post by _iyig » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

joijoiwejrr wrote: post #203

_iyig wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore kept his memo internal and did not circulate it widely. (It was leaked to the public in a calculated attempt to pressure Google into firing Damore.) As recently as last week, while she was still a Google employee, Gebru publicly accused her “privileged White men” bosses of racial bias: >Nothing like a bunch of privileged White men trying to squash research by marginalized communities for marginalized communiti…

> the leaker was also fired Really? I never heard this, and I followed the Damore drama very closely at the time. It's an interesting detail; do you have a source?

I had thought it was Tim Chevalier, who was indeed fired in connection to events surrounding the Damore memo, but a quick Google shows I have a faulty memory. Apparently he was fired for anti-Damore social media posts rather than leaking the memo in the first place. I have amended my original comment.

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/02/22/lawsuit-...

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#217

Post by thisismyswamp » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:11 PM UTC

Timnit conveniently lost access to the email that supposedly led to the firing. She previously sent her twitter mob out on LeCun for his stance on bias in machine learning models.

I do not respect that kind of person and will not take a stance on this. I am disappointed that the twitter crowd doesn't care about the email, but not surprised.

Just trying to keep in mind that the smart reasonable people tend to be silent.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#218

Post by hintymad » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #45

throwaway-kmc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you describe what happened? LeCunn calmly and rationally explained that a particular model produced biased results, and that that this was due to the bias in its training data. He was then excoriated as a racist by this woman and the Twitter mobs she incited, to the point where this Turing Award winner is no longer willing to engage with the public via that medium. LeCunn made repeated attempts to explain h…

> LeCunn calmly and rationally explained that a particular model produced biased results, and that that this was due to the bias in its training data. But this claim is certainly not necessarily correct, and he shouldn't have been so confident about it. Any part of a system can contribute to bias and that includes the model design, not just the data. If they want the system to work then they need to actually demonstr…

LeCunn may not be correct, but attacking his character for be incorrect is even worse. Moralizing even scientific debate is the road to destruction.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#219

Post by black_puppydog » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

dshpala wrote: post #210

black_puppydog wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read: her concerns about entrenched privilege are actually valid and you fully condone them? Great stance to take bruh.

Or: she won't be able to play black/minority card against Jeff, and will have to civilly discuss the matters. But judging from her tweets this is not happening, bruh.

After reading the mailing list mail in question (pending confirmation that it is authentic) I think Jeff Dean should have been well aware of the situation.

I quoted the relevant parts here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25292266

Assuming Dean was aware, this civil discussion should have happened either in the meeting described, or shortly thereafter. So far we only know her story on this meeting, but that story sure makes it sound like there was no discussion to be had.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#220

Post by PeterStuer » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

skywhopper wrote: post #211

PeterStuer wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand these seem to be sensitive and 'political' issues in the US. I just do not understand how any of this labeling and segregation can be productive in a workplace.

You don’t understand how trans people might have specific things in common to talk about that non-trans people don’t relate to? These groups aren’t just for political hot topics, but also for parents or for musicians or runners or any other affinity group.

I can surely understand how that can be the case. I just don't see why that would be specifically relevant to generally working on Google Brain.