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Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

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Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#211

Post by autokad »

mdorazio wrote: post #105
grenoire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is too much information around for the average person to filter and process and digest. All three are important parts of living in a society and it looks to me like even with e.g. economic issues alone, it's just very hard for (to be fair) anybody to keep up. In turn, people reach out to conspiracy theories to simplify the world around them with obvious answers and explanations. My theory, sort of.

I think this theory is missing a component: the erosion of respect for experts. It at least seems like pre-internet, when people didn't understand the world around them they would default to trusting what scientists/doctors/researchers told them was true. But today, we've gone so far down the disinformation "fake news" rabbit hole that a large portion of the general public, at least in America, just straight up doesn…

well the experts were saying in March, 2020 that masks do not work and are not recommended.

I was basically attacked at work as being xenophobic and insular for saying if we are going out we should wear a mask. so where were your experts on that one? sure f*#!ed up that one.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#212

Post by bena »

googthrowaway42 wrote: post #19

People have gotten stupider because the world is too complex (and fundamentally impossible) to understand in a completely rational way. Historically we have relied upon intuition, heuristics, and a network of trusted authority figures (usually a network of trusted institutions). The modern condition (post Enlightenment) can be understood as the elevation of rationality over all else and hostility towards heuristics a…

> In your own life if you think of the stupidest people you know they tend to be the most "intelligent" (software engineers, PHDs, doctors, lawyers, etc). That's modernity.

I have not found that to be the case at all. In fact, I've often found the stupidest people I know tend to be the people who think "the stupidest people tend to be the most "intelligent"".

It's means to discredit intelligence and expertise and replace them with shouting loudly.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#213

Post by prox »

sudosteph wrote: post #200
prox wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entertainment polarization I call it. It taps into the inborn urge to point your finger at something and feel something (superiority, laugh at the dumbness, curiosity) I feel it is quite insidious and not many have a defense against it. The way outlier theories and polarized content can now reach a crowd that was hitherto undreamed of. And people get swept up in it. We must learn from this, but we as technologists sh…

You've done an excellent job at identifying the problem, but I am extremely doubtful that this could be improved by focusing on algorithms and improving people's ability to discern information. When somebody has adopted a irrational position on something, it's not always possible to reason them out of it - especially when reason wasn't the primary factor in adopting that position in the first place. People often beli…

Yes. Absolutely. Fueled up and invested in your belief, it becomes harder to surrender that.

I do believe our best bet is to let science speak louder and put more weight into that. Both in our algorithms and into our debates. If people see some dude on a talkshow with an opinion vs an expert in a field, some equate that with both having equally valid and valuable opinions. Same if that happens on social. The presentation makes it seem both opinions have equal and valid weight.

That said, it’s a valuable discussion and a good incentive to really work harder and to do our research as technologists so we can be better at curbing the trend.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#214

Post by e40 »

Flankk wrote: post #7

> I am acquiring greater wisdom with age as I ought, but the average age of the typical person I encounter stays the same so they cannot keep up. I’m noticing the contrast increasing but misattributing it. My money is on this. You wouldn't typically argue with a kid, but on the internet you probably are.

I can definitely sort people into "growing" and "static" groups, and definitely the static folks tend to be not very smart. Part of being smart is realizing you don't know very much, and wanting to rectify that.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#215

Post by pdonis »

qsort wrote: post #193
pdonis wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ancient civilizations knew full well the earth was not flat. Some did. Not all of them. The first one I'm aware of is the Greeks. Do you know of any earlier ones? Also, the fact that particular intellectuals knew the Earth was round in a society does not necessarily mean it was common knowledge in that society, much less that it was such common knowledge that the average person would think it absurd to question it…

(edit to answer the edit) There's evidence in some Sanskrit texts that early Indian civilizations did, but they are probably contemporary to the Greeks. But again, even superficial observations are sufficient. You don't really have to "trust" anybody or research anything. If anything, it's the belief in flat earth that requires extremely convoluted and unintuitive rationalizations. Again, I understand this stuff is f…

> They might believe the claim in the sense they'd pass a lie detector test, but I doubt it's because they find the argument genuinely convincing.

Of course it's possible that they are trolling or something more or less equivalent. I find it hard to believe that anyone is that good at trolling, but I admit I find it less hard to believe after spending years on the Internet. :-)

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#216

Post by vibrolax »

Before the internet was a thing, the "National Enquirer" existed. A lot of people spent money to read it, and even more picked up copies that were laying around. As with pornography, there seems to be an unquenchable thirst for viewing the nonsense.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#217

Post by ihavequestions »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Counterintuitively, people love reading about and engaging in what they consider "stupidity". Internet companies capitalize on this by bringing an optimized stream of stupidity for your viewing pleasure. Take a look at the front page of Reddit (logged out, default subs): Half of the content highlights stupidity of others: /r/IdiotsInCars shows the worst drivers from around the world, /r/insanepeoplefacebook shows the…

I am convinced the world is "stupid", but it's not because I passively browse the front page of reddit more than I should. In fact, before you pointed out that it's mostly a stupidity concentrator (nice term btw), I didn't even notice that. When I read the front page of reddit I don't deduce the average intelligence of the participants by the most popular (mostly negative) posts of the day, I'm banking on the most upvoted posts being somewhat entertaining to me, nothing more.

What has convinced me the world is stupid is that as a whole we cannot get our shit together to deal with a global pandemic. You signal your intelligence when you show blatant disregard for the rules/law when you don't wear a mask when required. There are so many reasons why people do this (not knowing any better/not believing they work comes from lack of education), but it all stems from lack of intelligence (in my opinion). The fact that some parts of the world have effectively contained while others are miserably failing, causing so many needless deaths, knowing what needs to happen to create this outcome, you can only conclude that as a whole, we are morons.

So yeah, I'm sure social media is definitely doing some damage, acting as a conduit for false information, spreading theories on 5G towers spreading the virus etc, but taking 5 watching some dumbass total his car via /r/idiotsincars because it was upvoted into /r/all does not make me feel hopeless, what makes me feel hopeless is getting on a tram, making a quick scan and concluding that I have to move into the next section because in the current one there are too many people not wearing a mask.

Your post has made me reconsider browsing /r/all though.. it is all pretty bland these days and /r/WCGW isn't entertaining as it was when I first found it

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#218

Post by wahern »

reader_mode wrote: post #121
henrikschroder wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was research last year that showed that cynicism is a way for less intelligent people to protect themselves from being taken advantage of. Basically, if you know you're not smart enough to figure out if other people are genuine or out to scam you, defaulting to assuming that all strangers are lying is a winning strategy. The same kind of logic fuels conspiracy-minded people. The one thing they all have in commo…

>There was research last year that showed that cynicism is a way for less intelligent people to protect themselves from being taken advantage of. Basically, if you know you're not smart enough to figure out if other people are genuine or out to scam you, defaulting to assuming that all strangers are lying is a winning strategy. That narrative is ridiculous - what does intelligence have to do with it ? I guarantee you…

> cynicism should be a default strategy for everything you're not an expert in.

Cynicism is not the same thing as skepticism. Cynicism encompasses an abstract and often moral judgment about motivations and machinations, permitting you to draw conclusions without evidence. Skepticism is more about coming to terms with the contingent nature of truth, and can be a difficult skill to employ, particularly when you're presented with concrete choices and have to make real decisions--as opposed to merely opining on matters.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#219

Post by googthrowaway42 »

bena wrote: post #212
googthrowaway42 wrote: post #19

People have gotten stupider because the world is too complex (and fundamentally impossible) to understand in a completely rational way. Historically we have relied upon intuition, heuristics, and a network of trusted authority figures (usually a network of trusted institutions). The modern condition (post Enlightenment) can be understood as the elevation of rationality over all else and hostility towards heuristics a…

> In your own life if you think of the stupidest people you know they tend to be the most "intelligent" (software engineers, PHDs, doctors, lawyers, etc). That's modernity. I have not found that to be the case at all. In fact, I've often found the stupidest people I know tend to be the people who think "the stupidest people tend to be the most "intelligent"". It's means to discredit intelligence and expertise and rep…

> It's means to discredit intelligence

No

> and expertise

Yes

> and replace them with shouting loudly

No

See: Nassim Taleb's IYI (Intellectual Yet Idiot)

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#220

Post by dahart »

anewguy9000 wrote: post #136
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Counterintuitively, people love reading about and engaging in what they consider "stupidity". Internet companies capitalize on this by bringing an optimized stream of stupidity for your viewing pleasure. Take a look at the front page of Reddit (logged out, default subs): Half of the content highlights stupidity of others: /r/IdiotsInCars shows the worst drivers from around the world, /r/insanepeoplefacebook shows the…

actually, my friend, the median iq is still 100 - any way you slice it :/

Have you ever heard of the Flynn Effect?

IQ tests are being renormalized. Today's 100 may be last year's 99. Average IQs have gone up ~15 points since ~1950. Some evidence of slowing or reversing in the last 20 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

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