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DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

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Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#211
post #167
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually tried really hard to get RAM to corrupt a bit for a school project and didn't manage a single bit flip. How often have you actually heard of data corruption due to non-ECC memory? Either yourself, any degree of 'friend of a friend', or perhaps a study that looked into the matter with more success than I had. I don't mean a newspaper story because exceptional cases are reported because they're rare exceptio…

Did you try overclocking your system?

I think the motherboard didn't allow that, but it has been a few years and I don't recall the exact details. Thanks for the pointer nevertheless.

Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#212
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitsquatting? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WcHsT97suU

That's the one, thanks for finding it. It really is fascinating

That was actually the inspiration for my experiment with this in school, and I also setup one or two domains to catch bit flips but never got any hits. It's a complete myth as far as I have been able to tell (research tells me otherwise by using huge setups, and there are a few commenters here that seem to have first-hand experience, some seeming more trustworthy than others, but clearly not a majority of people). I get that it's (obviously) more than a myth, but I'm not sure it deserves the goo-goo eyes that it seems to trigger with many engineers, either. It's a neat feature slightly above the gimmick status but gets way more attention.

Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#213
post #198
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you buy ECC RAM, have you ever seen a single bit flip or heard of anyone that did?

When you think about the logic of what you said, it is pretty silly. Without ECC RAM, how would you know that you had a single bit flip? How would you know that you needed ECC RAM? When you talk to people who run server systems, you'll find there's plenty of bit flips. This expertise is getting harder to find though, as more people run systems in the "cloud" where there's no visibility into the physical error statist…

> Without ECC RAM, how would you know that you had a single bit flip?

Errors, glitches, or files with unexplained errors. If there is a bit flip in code, more likely than not that'll be an invalid instruction, jump, or something like that, so it would crash. If it's in data, often there's some algorithm involved (compression, linked list, js/css/html, whatever), so that would either find invalid data and crash or display an error, or display at least a wrong pixel to a certain degree (but, true, I'd have to spot a single color channel being off and there's, let's say, a 4/8 chance of the significance being too low to really see; but this only applies to a raw bitmap case). Data on disk should also become corrupted (I'm thinking of image or video editing, data processing like gigabytes of port scans that I recently processed, etc.) if it was inadvertently modified in RAM. There are a ton of ways to notice this, though admittedly also a certain number of cases where one wouldn't.

I see your point though, like, if the error is silently corrected by the software or I just hit retry and don't figure what the error must have been (also because it won't be reproducible), I'm unlikely to find out that I need ECC. Maybe I should introduce random bit flips on a raspberry pi (so I don't corrupt my actual production filesystem) and use that for an evening for browsing / programming / other usual activities to either prove or disprove the theory that I'd notice if this happens with any sort of regularity.

Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought so also, but decade of small improvements do accumulate to a large number. Something like 20% improvement 4 times would be doubling the IPC, but single threaded compilation is where I got more than that. The after purchase testing was even better than expected. i7 920 compiled a specific compilation unit in 14 seconds. 3900x in 3.5 seconds. And that was before any tuning, I had done some bios tuning for i7…

The i7 920 is a dozen years old (2008). No explanation required. I was thinking there wasn't much of an IPC increase over the last half dozen years or so, but there's absolutely been one over that long. Though really it's funny how little it's still increased - in 1996 we were just getting Pentiums at 150 MHz, and I don't think anyone would argue those are anywhere near comparable.

If we split the cycle time in two components, one is transistor and one is interconnect. Interconnect delay per length increases as much as the length decreases in each shrink. The transistor delay halves. That halving got transistor delay below the interconnection delay, so doubling that got huge improvements. Also for IPC there is diminishing returns, and easily available improvements got eaten early, and everyone is chasing diminishing returns. The Pentium PRO brought OoO and went from 2 to 3 decode and from 2 to 4 micro-ops/second. Core 2 went from 1 to 2 FP pipelines. Everyone is hitting the same issues, O(n^2) power and die costs for some structures widening things, but smaller fraction of code getting improved by widening. But it isn't all, it also increases latency which is either lower clocks or increased branch missprediction penalty.

Improving CPU:s has become harder simply because all the easier things have been done, and cost of improving one metric often causes worsening another thing slightly.

edit: Just to add, it isn't impossible to improve, but it's just has become harder. And this knowledge was part of reason why until I saw actual benchmarks I wasn't too interested in upgrading. I just found out the one thing I cared had gotten much better during that period.

Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#215
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bunch of links to papers here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2580933/cosmic-rays-what... e.g. "2009 Google's paper "DRAM Errors in the Wild: A Large-Scale Field Study" says that there can be up to 25000-75000 one-bit FIT per Mbit (failures in time per billion hours), which is equal to 1 - 5 bit errors per hour for 8GB of RAM after my calculations. Paper says the same: "mean correctable error rates of 2000–6000…

> 1 - 5 bit errors per hour for 8GB of RAM after my calculations That is way off from what I'm seeing. When launching Factorio I use 90% of my 8GB RAM and never once have I noticed data corruption, and I could tell you how many hours I've played but that would be embarrassing. The test I did in school with heated-up RAM (the internet said that's when flips should occur more often) also wrote many many gigabytes witho…

I would have to find the paper again, but CPU caches can mask the error rate. The cached values also can overwrite any corruption with correct values. This has interesting side effect of protecting commonly accessed data structures and function pointers from causing out right crashing. Same applies to commonly used values in a computation.

Unless you get a bit flip in data structure pointer or function pointer, it just adds an error to computation, but does not just out crash.

Also we are talking only a handful of errors out billions of calculations.

-Edit Also swap space may keep very rarely accessed data from corruption on the other end of spectrum.

Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#216
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its 2020 and you're still on a crt?

Eurogamer did write a review about playing modern games on a (very good) CRT monitor [1]. It's better than any LCD and even OLED monitors according to them: [1] https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-moder...

impressive. I'd super appreciate the image quality but it's really hard top give back the desk space to a monitor like it's 2003 again.

Re: DDR5 Is Coming: First 64GB DDR5-4800 Modules from SK Hynix

#217
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it doesn't have any games worth playing on it, whereas the ps4 has an established and extensive library that would take (me, at least) quite some time to get through. Probably long enough for the ps5 to become more purchasable than a steel Daytona, unlike now where it"s apparently extremely difficult to buy

For me, I'll get a PS5 for Demons' Souls alone. When you factor in upcoming games like the new Horizon Zero Dawn next year and the graphics-upgrades like Cyberpunk 2077, its definitely worth it. Although, realistically, it'll be a few months into next year before I actually get one.

Right but for all we know those games could suck. I hope they don't but we don't know.
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