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Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

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Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#211

Post by cactus2093 »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #187
csb6 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it’s discouraging. But Hacker News is a place for capitalists (self-identified) or wannabe capitalists to hold discussions, and the site is run by a venture capital firm, so makes sense. Still discouraging to see the lack of education HNers have on unions. Maybe ignorance is a better word.

I think it's maybe a bit more subtle. In our industry there's what I call the "California Ideology" (after the classic essay: https://www.metamute.org/editorial/articles/californian-ideo... which is a bit dated but still stands the test of time) At one point this perspective was fairly counter cultural -- computing technology fused with Alvin Toffleresque third wavism, a tinge of libertarianism but without a suit and…

> and while we're "changing the world" it's really not in any egalitarian or progressive way

There is a good argument to be made that increasing the GDP is a moral imperative [0]. I know it's increasingly trendy to think all of capitalism is evil and we should tear the whole global economic system down (and to tweet about it from your iPhone while sitting in your air conditioned home, eating your meal delivered by Doordash). As much as it is true that inequality is higher than it should be, and there are lots of things in the world that should be improved, it's also true that for the vast majority of people in the US and around the world, their living conditions today are much better than they would have been at any other time in history. Which is the simple result of compounding economic growth.

Talking about "changing the world" by building an app sounds a bit quaint and too self-serious these days, but I really don't think it's true that the average person working in tech contributes nothing positive to society.

[0] https://www.mercatus.org/bridge/essays/economic-growth-moral...

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#212

Post by heavyset_go »

kian wrote: post #180
heavyset_go wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as unions can forced on empolyees Nobody is forcing you to work a union job. You're free to take a non-union job or quit at any point.

Is this argument in any way distinguishable from someone saying 'Nobody is forcing you to work a non-union job. You're free to quit and take a union job any time you want'?

Nobody is arguing that they are forced to work a non-union job.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#213

Post by pb7 »

horsemessiah wrote: post #50
ancorevard wrote: post #31

I've not seen good come out of unions in decades. Example of unions that are net negative for society: police unions, teacher unions.

Teachers unions are definitely not a net negative...

Teachers unions exist at the detriment of children's education.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#214

Post by sudosysgen »

umvi wrote: post #162
sudosysgen wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not the issue. The issue is competition. Eventually, you have to cut costs in order to be competitive even if you're very nice, and if you read business administration textbooks cutting employee compensation is often the primary way.

Ok, so then how does a unionized company stay competitive if it isn't allowed to cut costs by reducing employee compensation? You are suggesting only unions know the effective secret methods of cutting costs that business-textbook-writers are unaware of?

It's quite simple. They either cut profits, or offer employees equity in compensation for lower wages. That goes against what the owners want, but it helps the workers and maintains the usefulness of the enterprise.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#215

Post by steffandroid »

umvi wrote: post #151
xiler wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actual unions are a far cry from how they are portrayed as helping the worker. I think it's a fairly well established industry trend that, on average, union membership is a net positive for the worker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_wage_premium

Couldn't this just be because unions can have a deteriorating effect on meritocracy? Say you have 10 workers - 2 are rock stars and make $50/hr, 6 are average and make $20/hr, and 2 are bad and make $10/hr (min wage - because they are never promoted). Average "non-union" pay is: $24/hr Now say you unionize and the union forces you to start paying the bad employees $20/hr like all the other average ones. So now you pa…

This is a pointless thought experiment that has practically no basis in reality.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#216

Post by not2b »

scohesc wrote: post #203

"Made in error!" The excuse heard round the world.

The error was that they stated so bluntly in a public job listing that they wanted a union buster with an intelligence background. They still are looking for someone like that, of course (or many someones), the error was that the job posting wasn't written in a properly deniable way.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#217

Post by josefx »

paxys wrote: post #181
umvi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because a lot of people on HN are small business owners, and unions take power away from business owners and can and will force you to do things to the detriment of your business if they deem it in the best interests of the union members.

Most of people on HN work at large tech companies. In my experience the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good, but of course that is infinitely debatable.

> the majority consensus in the industry is that a union would do more harm than good

Most people also think they are smarter than average. I have seen people that thought they were great at negotiating their own wages/benefits in a ritualized yearly pissing match with their boss only to be outdone by new hires. Lots of overinflated egos around that would rather rip their own arms of than pull on the same rope.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#218

Post by acephal »

not2b wrote: post #216
scohesc wrote: post #203

"Made in error!" The excuse heard round the world.

The error was that they stated so bluntly in a public job listing that they wanted a union buster with an intelligence background. They still are looking for someone like that, of course (or many someones), the error was that the job posting wasn't written in a properly deniable way.

Maybe they can ask Sammy Gravano for recommendations

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#219

Post by eli_gottlieb »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #204

I very much doubt they no longer intend to hire somebody for such activities, this was just way too much in the open.

They'll go through an adequately discreet private headhunter. Those responsible for this leaking to the media, have been sacked.
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