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Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

newstatesman.com

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Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#211

Post by kwhitefoot »

mirko22 wrote: post #207
doliveira wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, minimum wage jobs mostly won't expect you to work beyond your normal periods and days, but they definitely won't want you working less than that. The weirdest part, though, is voluntary taking several months or even a year between jobs. Now that is proper privilege.

Why though? You don't know in what conditions he spends that time. He might live in a way you would not like to live without a job so you think of not working a privilege.

> Why though?

Probably because we assume that when he wants a job he can get one, and one that pays for all the time of as well, at the drop of a hat. But it's not so for someone without in demand skills.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#212

Post by ozim »

grecy wrote: post #65
Barrin92 wrote: post #10

>we also need to challenge the cultural ethic that teaches us to value ourselves in proportion to our capacity for “economically productive” labour. Human beings are more than just workers. We need to learn how to value idleness. I think much more than valueing idleness it's also a massive indictement of the system we live in. The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work…

The day I drove into Mexico it was a huge shock to see so many people around just enjoying their time - paying with their younger relatives on the beach, playing guitar, singing and dancing. My fascination and disbelief at the amount of leisure time everyone has continued for two years through all of Latin America, and then for another three years when I drove right around Africa. Having come from years grinding at a…

West way of life is expensive that is why we have to grind at a desk job.

What do we pay for with that grind: low violent crime rates, good roads so lower amount of traffic deaths, better health care.

Being poor or sick in Latin America or Africa sucks.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#213

Post by thequux »

eckza wrote: post #165
mc32 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some jurisdictions it's mandatory to wear a mask when out in public. A lot of the definitions are wishy washy (medically approved, for example), is a national forest a "public space"? technically, yes...

Austin, Texas. One of "the worst hotspots". Can confirm that not one soul has hassled any of us for riding our bikes in the woods with our masks off. Were it not for bicycle motocross, I think I would have jumped in front of a bus by now. Seeing my friends in the woods is one of the only things keeping me sane. I cannot recommend cycling highly enough; not just as a pandemic activity, but as a way of life.

I live in Gent, Belgium, which has more bike traffic than car traffic on any given day. Biking here is treated as a way of life. I've been spoken to for biking without a mask, even though I was not in a heavily populated area (I was riding along a canal outside of the city, and was accosted by a police officer riding in the opposite direction).

But even so, so what? The mask isn't going to let me ride as vigorously as I normally would, but I can still get out into nature and enjoy some exercise and new scenery.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#214

Post by isaachawley »

marcusverus wrote: post #59
perfunctory wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The number of people who I've talked to who legitimately don't know what to do without work during the pandemic is staggering. The pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive: seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio, and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work; if they had more leisure, they would again enjoy pleasures in whic…

I'm not sure that this little nugget of wisdom has withstood the test of time. The average number of hours worked has fallen dramatically since the 30s[0] even as interest in passive entertainment has skyrocketed. [0] https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/

Leisure != time outside of work. If you're commuting, if you're too exhausted to get off the couch, if you're on-call and worrying about interruptions, then you're not truly at leisure.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#215

Post by perfunctory »

logarhythmic wrote: post #208
perfunctory wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as interest in passive entertainment has skyrocketed I would like to see some data on this. It may seem like it but I would say it's quite the opposite.

Why do you think so?

I dunno. Here is just one random stat that came to mind. Boston marathon participation throughout the years

  1897 - 18
  1930 - 218
  1970 - 1174
  2000 - 17813
  2019 - 30234
https://www.baa.org/races/boston-marathon/results/participat...

Still, would be interesting to see some comprehensive study on active leisure.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#216

Post by archi42 »

d_burfoot wrote: post #113

I get upset when I read essays like this that don't mention the role that the government plays in creating drudgery and destroying leisure. A good way to highlight this is to point out that in the US, the government at all levels spends about $20K/person/year. If that money was just redistributed to individuals, we would actually be living in the leisure-filled world predicted in the early part of the century. Instea…

Ignoring the obvious "citation needed" for the $20k, think about what that money is spent on. There is some pretty nice stuff among that list, like public roads or schools.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#217

Post by tmnvix »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #179
allenu wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your attitude. How, if I may ask, did you end up with your current philosophy? Was it through past experiences where people did take your time and you gave in? I love the idea of taking lots of time off, but on a personal level I have a lot of guilt surrounding that. I know it's not rational since ultimately it's my life, but it's still something I need to work on to get over. If you have tips on changing my m…

Can't answer for caymanjim. Personally, I now work about 2-5 hours per week, mostly just meeting some people (don't have to do anything besides talking to them). What I realized early in my professional career was that position trumps everything. For example, if you are born into a great enough position, you are set for life, pretty much regardless of anything else. Then I figured out (slowly over time through trial…

I'm curious. If you don't mind me asking, what do you talk about for those 2-5 hours?

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#218

Post by ozim »

hirundo wrote: post #52

> Bertrand Russell wrote “In Praise of Idleness” in 1932, at the height of the Great Depression, idleness was an unavoidable reality for the millions who had lost their jobs What a passive attitude. Unless you're in a straight jacket idleness is a thoroughly avoidable reality. Hustle matters most when you're broke and unemployed. If you're doing it right being unemployed is a full-time job, job hunting. Or building y…

You know that people live in places where: job market is limited, market for their skills is limited.

Even if you apply to every shitty job in your area you might run out of options. What then? Move to another city or another country? To do that you have to have some funds. If you have a house or property in one place you probably won't move so easily as well. So it might be that one has to wait it out.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#219

Post by tmnvix »

Xophmeister wrote: post #24

Why did Keynes believe that, say, a doubling of efficiency (through technology) would half work time for everyone? Sure it’s a solution to the equation, but so is what actually happened[1]: half the workforce gets laid off. This halves the costs, which facilitates price reduction and thus a competitive edge. Did Keynes believe that benevolence would win over profit? Don’t get me wrong, I wish it had, but that seems a…

> what actually happened

I can't find the comment, but I do remember someone on HN suggesting that the gains of extra productivity are claimed by a corresponding increase in credit and therefore debt.

Re: Bertrand Russell's argument for idleness is more relevant than ever

#220

Post by LatteLazy »

Xophmeister wrote: post #24

Why did Keynes believe that, say, a doubling of efficiency (through technology) would half work time for everyone? Sure it’s a solution to the equation, but so is what actually happened[1]: half the workforce gets laid off. This halves the costs, which facilitates price reduction and thus a competitive edge. Did Keynes believe that benevolence would win over profit? Don’t get me wrong, I wish it had, but that seems a…

Keynes believed we would as a society, change our behavior (2 day working week etc) to maintain employment.

He was semi right. We've actually made work weeks longer, but less than 50% of people work (at all, let alone full time).

The issue here is equality. Keynes assumed everyone would be viewed ad equal and given the same time off. Instead a large number of people have been allowed to opt out entirely and others have been forced to pick up the slack...

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