Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

capitalandgrowth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 544 posts

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#211

Post by SllX »

pixl97 wrote: post #172
SllX wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a bad faith question asked in an attempt to setup a straw man argument and you know it, and I know it, so cut the crap. Worry about the guy writing software for all the nuclear power plants we’re not building, not the guy who makes webshit, word processors and compilers for a living. Architects, Doctors and Lawyers are closer to one extreme, you can make as strong a case for licensing them as you can for not l…

Writers of open source software are winding up to one day spin in their graves reading the comments of the authoritarians demanding software licensing in here.

Agreed. There is no professional class so enlightened that it won’t use whatever means available, governmental or otherwise, to insulate itself from competitive pressures.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#212

Post by matz1 »

tehsauce wrote: post #170
matz1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics are subjective and always evolving. I think Engineering ethics is not to tell you what to build or not to build but rather to tech you what is the likely outcome if you decided to build x or not to build x. Based on that its up to you to decide whatever to do or not do it.

I'm not sure what your engineering experience is, but I'm pretty certain that >80% of engineers are not in a position to refuse to work and quit their job without a severe impact on their career. And the same goes for managers and directors, all the way up to the top. Fail to explore a new technology your competitor is already working on? You've just damaged your company and all your employees. The only way to deal w…

Of course every decision in life will always have its own trade off.

Sure it can have severe impact on their career but its still a choice whether to do or not to do, quit or not to quit

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#214

Post by dmarchand90 »

There's the Archimedean oath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedean_Oath

Considering the life of Archimedes of Syracuse who illustrated the ambiguous potential of technology since the Antiquity, Considering the growing responsibility of engineers and scientists towards societies and nature, Considering the importance of the ethical problems stemming from technology and its applications, Today, I commit to the following statements and shall endeavor to reach towards the ideal that they represent:

I shall practice for the good of humankind, respecting human rights1 and the environment.

I shall recognize the responsibility for my actions, after informing myself to the best of my abilities, and shall in no case discharge my responsibilities on another person.

I shall endeavor to perfect my professional abilities When choosing and implementing projects, I shall remain wary of their context and their consequences, notably in their technical, economic, social and ecological aspects. I shall give particular attention to projects with military applications.

I shall contribute, to the extent of my abilities, to promote equitable relationships between people and to support the development of economically weaker countries.

I shall transmit, with rigor and honesty, to discerningly chosen interlocutors, any important information, if it constitutes a gain for society or if its retention constitutes a danger for others. In the latter case, I shall ensure that the communication yields concrete action.

I shall not let myself be governed by the defense of my own interests or those of my corporation.

I shall endeavor, to the best of my abilities, to lead my company to take into account the preoccupations of the present oath.

I shall practice my profession in complete intellectual honesty, with conscience and dignity.

I solemnly take this oath, freely and on my honor."

1. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations (10 December 1948)

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#215

Post by dmarchand90 »

madrox wrote: post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

To me this argument sounds a bit like a "only following orders" defence. I'm sure smart engineers ,I.e., all of them, can figure out what the application of their work will be.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#217

Post by MattGaiser »

pvtmert wrote: post #216

The missing point: You can't become surgeon by Googling and slicing things While you can become /Software Engineer/ entirely by yourself (self taught)

BloodOverflow:

"The inflating red bag stopped inflating. What do I do?"

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#218

Post by drivingmenuts »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #130
qyv wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I was only following orders." Edit to add: If you are being asked to perform illegal or unethical acts as part of your employment, then perhaps termination is an ideal course of action? Unless of course your personal enrichment outweighs legalities or ethics in your worldview?

And I wasn't implying engineers should be entirely blameless. Everyone has a limited understanding of legal systems too complex for one person to fully grasp. And workers far below the level of decision makers should be judged according to evidence of their knowledge and responsibility. Likewise those who give orders should bear more responsibly. All these "companies take on a life of their own" arguments sound a lot…

It may be fine in some countries, but saying that you’ll make some organization sizes and structures illegal, barring other criminal activity, smells like a violation of the freedom of association.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#219

Post by raxxorrax »

tfehring wrote: post #41
madrox wrote: post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

In sufficiently complex systems, you can always blame someone else if you're motivated to do so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IssR_J0QWr4 But ultimately there's always a software engineer involved in the creation of software - and that's not true of any of the other roles you mentioned. Since software engineers are necessary and sufficient to produce software, they should always be held responsible, and any oath s…

I think it something should already kick in if you create tracking pixels to read canvas data to identify users or generally work on fingerprinting. Especially if it is for a benign purpose as advertising, an industry that is notoriously toxic and would have no problems selling ever kind of data they get their hands on. It is fine to generalize it that way in my opinion. The directly conflict with any spirit of the law in most countries regarding privacy.

Aside from that, the quantification of attributes/properties of people can have negative implications for many people. Oversharing is a problem on the net, but at least here people just endanger themselves.

Re: Microsoft President: We Need a Hippocratic Oath for Software Engineers

#220

Post by noncoml »

madrox wrote: post #8

I’m not a fan of comparisons to the Hippocratic oath. The greatest risk to AI ethics is not the ethics of software engineers but the ethics of the software engineering process. By the time tasks are handed to engineers, most of the ethical decisions have been made by product managers, designers, and business stakeholders who are focused on their own goals. Software engineers are accountable to their bosses before the…

Don’t sell out yo FB or Google or some other “not-evil(R)” Corp and you will never have to follow orders from your boss that don’t meet your ethics.
Post reply on HN