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Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

theatlantic.com

211–220 of 292 posts

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#211
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would that matter? transmission from surfaces is apparently quite low, and it doesnt last long on surfaces, and its not like im touching / eating off anything my shoes come into contact with anyway. This feels like an incredibly low risk vector

Low but greater than the “aerosolized” vector. When people sneeze, it land on surfaces (like floors), when they cough, etc. If surfaces were not a problem, we wouldn’t be using wipes and sanitizers. So why ignore one possibility and stress another? When people take off their shoes they can get contaminated. If they have pets the pets will pick some up and get it on you, etc.

The incessant use of wipes and sanitizers is basically "Hygiene Theatre" [1].

> In May, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention updated its guidelines to clarify that while COVID-19 spreads easily among speakers and sneezers in close encounters, touching a surface “isn’t thought to be the main way the virus spreads.” Other scientists have reached a more forceful conclusion. “Surface transmission of COVID-19 is not justified at all by the science,” Emanuel Goldman, a microbiology professor at Rutgers New Jersey Medical School, told me.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/scourge-hy...

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#212
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is the fundamental failure of this administration. Months ago we could have designed a high quality and visually unique mask with less than N95 efficiency but with a reasonable safety and comfort level. We should already have been manufacturing and distributing them at cost. They should be mandatory in all enclosed spaces and we could have prevented a lot of the spike in spread we are seeing now and are li…

There is no reason to design a worse mask than N95. They could have just manufactured more N95 masks and rationed them to prevent hoarding and speculating. Every household could get an N95 mask ration card to buy masks and decon tools like UV-C lights and sparky ozone generators.

Yeah, I'm not trying to say that everyone shouldn't wear an N95, but from a pragmatic standpoint they won't. People will barely wear one today that is made out of a t-shirt and barely fits. I just think we'd get better results meeting people halfway.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#213
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was clear from the very beginning that transmission was airborne. To me the only thing that was clear was the definition of airborne is not standard. By strict definition, COVID is not airborne since it seems to require a host material (e.g. water droplet). This is in contrast to measles which individual virus particles can survive without a host material. Practically speaking though, COVID seems to be able to s…

>By strict definition, COVID is not airborne since it seems to require a host material (e.g. water droplet). You are wrong. Read: 1. https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmissi... . 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2342-5_reference.... . Aerosol transmission is the main vector. Consider posing your statement in the reverse: SARS-CoV-2 does not disperse in droplets, and/or is not infectio…

> Aerosol transmission is the main vector.

Yeah. And that's not 'airborne'.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#214
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is the fundamental failure of this administration. Months ago we could have designed a high quality and visually unique mask with less than N95 efficiency but with a reasonable safety and comfort level. We should already have been manufacturing and distributing them at cost. They should be mandatory in all enclosed spaces and we could have prevented a lot of the spike in spread we are seeing now and are li…

Have other countries done this? Is the US the only country that has seen a spike as things open up? Just interested in the comment “failure of this administration,” when I haven’t seen such attempts in other countries either. Perhaps this is a failure of the WHO? There hasn’t been any notable proposals from Congress in this issue either. Were people advocating such a solution and it was ignored? Because hindsight is…

Regardless of if a new standard for masks would help (it would), the federal government's official position on masks is an obvious failure if you're paying attention, given that the first time President Trump wore a mask was July 11, 6 months after the virus should have been known to top officials in this administration.

(In particular, a surgical mask is better than nylon netting and "N95" doesn't describe how exhaled particles are treated. An N95 mask with an unfiltered exhalation valve has the wearer exhaling droplets all over the place.)

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#215

I am still shocked: months after research has shown that SARS-CoV-2 is airborne stable in aerosol form for over 3 hours, we still aren’t telling the public that room air purifiers are a ‘good thing’ (for making indoor air like outdoor air - in regards to virion density per cubic air volume) The filter technology is essentially the same as in the N95, orders of magnitude more effective than cloth masks. Put these indo…

> is airborne stable in aerosol form

AKA, it's not airborne. If it requires water particles to host the virus, its not airborne.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#216
post #52

One issue is that we seem to have an all-or-nothing view of infection. People think that either a virus gets in your nose and you get sick, or it doesn't and you're fine. This extends to thinking that either there is a risk or there isn't, which motivates incorrect anti-mask arguments. In reality, the probability of infection varies continuously with the degree of exposure, and the minimal infective dose might be pre…

Exactly, that "all or nothing" is the main problem in in how most of the people think about the whole topic.

I've read one work that gave the very simple estimates: if the infected person wears the surgical mask it will emit 50% less in the air, and if the non-infected person wears the surgical mask that person will get 60% of what's in the air. But combined, that means that the non-infected person will get around only 30% of what it would get when nobody would wear a mask. Which seems to be way too little for personal "full" protection, but looking more globally:

If the R factor (reproduction number) is 2.7 with no measures, and if everybody wears a mask and other limitations are respected (physical distancing, limiting the number or people in the closed spaces, ventilation, etc.), all together it can result in the R factor being reduced to less than 1: With the known no-measures factor 2.7 we have exponential growth. With the factor under 1, we have a steady decay in the number of infected people.

There we also "just" have to reduce that factor to 30% of the no-measures one. It's not so easy as some people spread to many, and a lot already don't pass the virus to others. That's why groups of people near each other change everything too much.

But just by maintaining the factor under 1 (the lower the better) we guarantee that the relative number of infected around us will be always be smaller and smaller, and that's can be more than enough for the population as the whole.

That's why wearing the masks and any additional good measures together do help, even if every measure, evaluated alone, for only one person, "doesn't protect" enough.

So it is not just either 0 or 100%, but everything in between: not everybody has to use the same protection that the medical workers have to to improve the chances for everybody. But everybody should do it. One person who's actually infected and not wearing its mask changes the number of viruses passed to anybody in its vicinity from 30% to 60%, when all the rest wear the masks, or to 0 to somebody who's also not wearing the mask. From the starting 50% and 60% of masks "working" we get all the other outcomes too.

And the same is valid for testing. Rapid wide scale cheap testing to identify who should enter the building doesn't have to be as good as PCR tests to still give us immense benefits, if we have it and use it. We just have to be clear that we want it, and that we know now it's not about "either 0 or 100%."

Also, the pictures (and the video) explaining much more than many words:

"Face coverings and mask to minimise droplet dispersion and aerosolisation: a video case study"

https://thorax.bmj.com/content/early/2020/07/24/thoraxjnl-20...

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#217

in the UK the LNER train company highlights ventilation amongst other things, but the ventilation bit I found suprising when I encountered it. https://www.lner.co.uk/travel-information/lets-travel-togeth... " Our onboard ventilation systems are providing a continuing supply of fresh air which is cycled every 6 minutes limiting droplet transmission between passengers." With the graphics implying that ventilation is sp…

The closest to air-conditioning possible in trains like LNER's is more similar to individual window units (except mounted in the ceiling) than the integrated systems in larger homes or offices.

LNER operates two types of multiple-unit from the same family (a conventional EMU and then a bi-modal hack of that concept because the Tories don't want to spend money electrifying more of the railway), and then an older loco-hauled passenger service where a type 91 is pulling and there's a train of mostly passive passenger stock behind it.

In both these designs there is electricity available, to run the air conditioning units, but it's not practical to pump air around the train so they don't. The air in your part of the train will get recirculated by the fans that make the air conditioning unit work, so I'd expect that if you spent an hour on a train four seats from an infectious person there's a decent chance you'll be infected. But air from other carriages isn't recirculated into yours at more than negligible level.

Because these are mostly doing intercity journeys (thus fewer stops, and perhaps dwelling for longer at each) even the newer EMUs were not designed as a single huge tube like the modern Tube stuck or some local EMUs. So there's a "double airlock" partition between one carriage and the next which reduces noise and discomfort but makes getting on and off take a little longer. In this particular case it probably makes the train slightly safer to use.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#218
post #4

My company took steps to address this months ago. The re-circulation rate was set to zero so all air is fresh make up air from outside. This has significantly increased our cooling bill since it's summer, but it was something that we felt important even though there hasn't been much science to back it up. We also have a UV system hooked up to our system, but this has been installed for the last 2-3 years now.

How does that work? Is it just a setting on industrial HVAC systems or did it require someone coming out and reconfiguring things? I’ve heard some schools are considering leaving the windows open year-round while running the heat/AC to get air turnover. Maybe because those HVAC systems are dated?

It's an industrial HVAC system that has control systems to allow this (simply just changing damper settings)...but ours is also ~25 years old. Schools opening windows would just be a low tech way of looking at how we change the damper settings.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#219
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all if it isn't designed that way (ours isn't because we never plan to not use recirc). The loss isn't actually that much and since we are using low temp cooling water to cool the air and we have a significant amount of that on site already we barely notice (still a cost though).

How old is your building? New construction is so weather sealed and lacks fresh air leaks to meet air quality standards. Pretty sure whatever standard to get a green rating on a building requires outside air to be mixed in and due to efficiency requirements there has to be heat exchanger.

25 years...but we also have the ability to open outside dampers on our return air chases to output all air if needed.

Re: Why aren’t we talking more about airborne transmission?

#220
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gyms and restaurants have had their air conditioning off in Aus. Israel turned off their bus air conditioning. This isn't breaking news but I suspect it would be a new angle to the media rhetoric for a few countries and media outlets.

It's the middle of summer in the US so that's not going to go over well here. Just another thing for Karens to yell about and get on the news.

Yes, well that's the trouble. Not much use in knowing what will help when no one is willing to sacrifice, that of course being the charitable view.
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