ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#211

Post by mondalaci » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

eyeball wrote: post #120

johncalvinyoung wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I appreciate my friend who loaned me his spare Ultimate Hacking Keyboard for a couple months to help with my tendonitis. When it goes back to him, I'll probably order one myself.

I’ve found my UHK’s (three of them) to be great but prone to a few problems: 1) the rubber legs tend to fall out and go missing 2) they’re very susceptible to static electricity shocks on the exposed metal parts 3) the usb cable connector is fragile and I’d you move much, it can get damaged inside the keyboard requiring you open it up to fix. I wish they had used usb-c and put it in a better/easier location.

Hi there, thanks for your huge support, and sorry to hear about the issues!

Issue 1 has been fixed quite a while ago. We provide spare rubber feet if you need some. I'm unsure if we faced with issue 2 because your description doesn't contain many details about this one. As for issue 3, this is quite a rare one, and we'll provide a new UHK version featuring USB-C and tons of improvements.

PS: I'm the founder of the UHK. I may forget about this thread, but feel free to reach us via https://UltimateHackingKeyboard.com/

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#212

Post by jerezz » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

Has anyone come across an ergo keyboard like this that has a mouse roller on the thumb pad? I think my arms would appreciate a way to interact with the mouse without moving my hands away from the keys.

I'm using a Kinesis Advantage2 right now, but I still need to move my hand to get to the touchpad.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#213

Post by ceocoder » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

Ah this is really cool, quite similar to a keyboard I’m designing - https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa - haven’t designed a case yet.

They have taken an interesting approach with thumb cluster, single key on farend and 3 on near end of thumb. I did the opposite of that, on account of thumb being not that flexible in bent position.

Over the years my daily driver has been kinesis advantage2. I tried ergodox but really disliked thumbcluster placement and additional middle keys. I made a keeb.io Nyqist recently and got a few pcbs printed for Redox, need to build that out.

It is really hard to go back to non-split keyboards after using split for a while, and kinesis advantage is still the gold standard imo, concave keywell alone is the reason to spend north of $350 on it.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#214

Post by tharne » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #172

alxlu wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to use one for months before giving up because I felt it was too big. I mostly enjoyed typing in the key wells, but I ended up getting thumb pain because of how much I had to stretch my hand in order to reach the enter/backspace/modifier keys.

What do you use now? The Dactyl was partly modeled after the Kinesis. It has the key wells and a curved thumb cluster. Still, the thumb cluster isn't perfect and its hard for most people to reach all of the keys. However, the Dactyl Manuform keeps the amazing key wells and has a completely redesigned thumb cluster. Its also designed to be easily customizable. There are versions with 2,3,4,5 and 6 keys per thumb clust…

The Dactyl is a beautiful piece of design and engineering, I've been thinking about getting one. What variation of Dactyl Manuform are you using, i.e. 4x6, 5x6?

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#215

Post by Symbiote » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

arka2147483647 wrote: post #191

benji-york wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For another take on thumb clusters, check out the Diverge: https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/

Honestly, the three-normal-buttons thumb cluster seems worse than the three-long-buttons in Moonlander. But would be nice to try it if i get the chance.

You press the key on or close to the the near edge using your thumb either way, so it really doesn't matter.

(This comment typed on an Ergodash: https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash It would be possible to press the key labelled with the noodle bowl using my thumb, although I'm not in the habit of doing so. I might try and make it a habit, now I think about it. The top half of the "Enter" on the right side is pointless; my keyboard has 2 small keys instead of the large one.)

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#216

Post by nhumrich » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

yepguy wrote: post #209

Stop making split keyboards! You don't need 2 separate pieces; all you really need are slightly angled keys away from the center. See the Truly Ergonomic keyboard[1] for example. That layout also has the advantage of being a design you could use for a laptop, if only manufacturers put actual effort into their laptop keyboards. [1]: https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/

Keyboards should be truly split for two reasons: a) different people need the spacing between the sides to be different. Ideally, based on the length of your shoulders. b) some people, like me, like to put our pointing device (mouse) in-between the two halves

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#217

Post by dharmab » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:04 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #89

samgranieri wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This keyboard, and the Erdogox EZ I bought a month ago are reprogrammable! There's a slick web UI that can generate firmware for you so you can reflash a keyboard's firmware. You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it and flash it yourself. It's called QMK Here's mine: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/64YXl/la... Last but not least, on this keyboard and most mechani…

But the keys in the middle are differently sized; there are two of them for the three rows of keys. You can reprogram, but you can't just add a regular "Y" key on the left and a "T" key on the right that are where they are supposed to be.

The hardware is open; you can build or modify the keys as you please. There a number of variants with different key layouts: https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#218

Post by jseliger » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

jerezz wrote: post #212

Has anyone come across an ergo keyboard like this that has a mouse roller on the thumb pad? I think my arms would appreciate a way to interact with the mouse without moving my hands away from the keys. I'm using a Kinesis Advantage2 right now, but I still need to move my hand to get to the touchpad.

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#219

Post by jsjohnst » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

nextos wrote: post #92

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more th…

I’m also a fan of low actuation force and short travel keyboards. I really like the Magic Keyboard in virtually every way except the key layout.

Reading through the various switches they offer, it seems the Kailh Silver might be the closest match of what they offer to Apple’s switches, but I sadly am not willing to spend nearly $400 to find out.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#220

Post by MivLives » Fri, Jul 31, 2020, 11:13 PM UTC

nonbirithm wrote: post #165

tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread…

I think the reason for lack of f keys is a two fold:

1. It's cheaper and easier to have less switches on a board. Some people are using switches that push a dollar or more a switch. That's an extra ten bucks for keys that... most people don't use that often. It also makes it easier for board layout I imagine, but I'll admit I don't have much knowledge on creation of custom PCBs.

2. One of the things I've seen complained about with the Ergodox and the reason most of the variants (Gergo, Iris, Corne) is the same thing your friend said. The extra keys that aren't in easy reach add more hand movement. When you have a thumb cluster as a lot of these boards do adding more layers is relatively trivial. Most of these boards have software that lets you output macros as well meaning that you can essentially output key short cuts that would have used the f keys, or any other 3 plus combination of keys as just two. Germ over a Gboards has taken this concept to absurdity with the Ginny. It has ten keys and is heavily inspired by stenography style chording.

I used to be in your boat, not thinking I'd ever want something smaller then maybe a 75% or ten keyless. However I recently got a 64% keyboard that has a split space bar. I'll admit I haven't found myself missing the f keys as much as I thought I would. The closer positioning of the arrow keys has left my elbows feeling better at the end of the day. It's also close enough to a normal keyboard that even with a few substitutions (esc is now where caps lock is. Backspace is right thumb.) my muscle memory seems to be fine when switching back and forth.